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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:42:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
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I am going to give a broader answer to Derek's questions about the
existence of two lists than the ones he asked:
WHAT DOES THE CRAN LIST OFFER THAT IS SPECIAL?
(1) A DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY
Although I'm not trying to start a "religious war", the CRSOCIETY
seems to be "monotheistic" wheresas I intend this list to be
"polytheistic". Brian Delaney seems to believe that Caloric Restriction
and ONLY Caloric Restriction can extend lifespan (and he seems only
concerned with MAXIMUM lifespan rather than MEAN lifespan). The God
of CR is a jealous God -- wishing no other gods before Him.
By contast, I am a "polytheist": I believe that many supplements
and dietary practices can extend lifespan -- and I place great value
on extension of *both* MAXIMUM and MEAN lifespan. Nonetheless, unlike
Douglas Skrecky -- who seems to think that the benefits of CRAN can
be realized through low Glycemic Index foods, chromium picolinate, etc.
-- I regard CRAN to be the Zeus of the pantheon. I believe CRAN operates
by distinct mechanisms which cannot be replicated by supplements. Douglas
is welcome here for the contributions he makes, but I hope that interest
in supplements does not undermine a primary focus on CRAN.
(2) EXPERIENCED MEMBERSHIP
I am not actively engaged in "outreach". At present I expect that
nearly all, if not all, subscribers to this list have been seasoned
subscribers to CRSOCIETY. Thus, I expect few postings of the "I'm new
to CR" variety on this list. I am hoping that discussions here will
be on a more "advanced", rather than on a "beginner" level. I don't
discount the value of outreach, but I think that the CRSOCIETY is a
suitable vehicle for that purpose -- and the CRAN list needn't duplicate
the effort.
(3) ABSENCE OF THE DOMINATING PRESENCE OF BRIAN DELANEY
Virulent attacks and misrepresentations by Brian Delaney against
Douglas Skrecky & me had a lot to do with forming this list. This may
be of little import to the "silent majority" who never locked-horns with
Brian, but it is possible that people have refrained from contributing
after witnessing Brian's attacks. This list may have a "Dominating
Presence of Ben Best", and I do not pretend that I will refrain from
criticism. But I think that my rejoinders will contain more science
and less insult than Brian's.
I would not want Brian on this list. Whatever positive contribution
could come from his knowledge & experience is vastly outweighed (in my
mind) by the negative contribution of his personality. Brian has
recommending boycotting the CRAN list, so I haven't had to deal with
the problem of him wanting to join.
Although I haven't formulated any policy as yet, I may at some point
decide to kick people off the list whose postings are too unscientific,
too hostile or too boring. I hope I never feel the necessity of doing
this.
(4) BETTER SECURITY AND LIST MAINTENANCE
One person subscribing to this list told me that he does not want
his status as a subscriber to be public knowledge. I will not reveal
the names of subscribers and I believe that the configuration of this
list (and the supporting software) will ensure the anonymity of the
subscribers & my control over the list.
By contrast, the CRSOCIETY list is "wide open". Anyone on the list can
send a message to Majordomo@lists.sni.net with a line that reads:
who crsociety
in the body of the message and receive a complete list of all CRSOCIETY
subscribers. Anyone who obtains this list can use it to bombard the
CRSOCIETY subscribers with junk e-mail. Moreover, people like Bob Avery
who have ostensibly been excluded can use this listing to post messages
to all the subscribers. The "who" command has been disabled on the CRAN
list.
Also, I don't think the CRSOCIETY list is maintained at all. My
attempts to send Steve Mahalek a request to remove "benbest@io.org" from
the list have fallen on deaf ears. I think the administrative account for
CRSOCIETY is under constant bombardment with bounced messages that no-one
reads. It is difficult to administer a list under these conditions.
DIVISIVENESS AND CROSS-POSTING
I requested that people not cross-post to both the CRSOCIETY list
and the CRAN list. I expressed the opinion that this would only mean
duplicate messages to members of the CRAN list. However, I can understand
why people would want to include people from both lists in their postings.
Anyone who wants to do this should post to CRSOCIETY, since almost
everyone on the CRAN list is on CRSOCIETY.
The charge that I have been "divisive" in starting this list is
not one that I can easily shrug-off. But I could not continue posting
to Brian Delaney's list -- it was this or nothing. I expect that few
subscribers on this list share that feeling -- so they are welcome
to post to the other list. I won't kick anyone off for cross-posting,
either -- I was just making a request and saying why I think cross-posting
is unnecessary.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 2 11:42:45 1997
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Subject: Re: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
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From: ddmcneill1@juno.com (Derek D McNeill)
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Ben,
Thank you for answering my question, along with related ones I hadn't
thought
of asking.
I don't want to clutter this list with things other than science, but
maybe just
at the very beginning here it would be good to get straight on a few
things.
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:42:53 -0500 (EST) Ben Best
writes:
| (1) A DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY
|
| Brian Delaney seems to believe that Caloric Restriction
| and ONLY Caloric Restriction can extend lifespan (and he
| seems only concerned with MAXIMUM lifespan rather than
| MEAN lifespan).
Both of these statements are not correct, as far as I could see in the
archives. The
first statement may not be far off, but I think for Brian the issue there
is existence
of evidence.
| (3) ABSENCE OF THE DOMINATING PRESENCE OF BRIAN DELANEY
I hope your phone conversation with Brian clears some of this up.
| Virulent attacks and misrepresentations by Brian Delaney against
| Douglas Skrecky & me had a lot to do with forming this list.
After emailing a little with Brian recently about this, I've discovered
that his
views of you and of Douglas Skrecky are entirely different. I don't think
he
would mind me saying this, since he's been public about it. Someone told
him that D.S. sells chromium, and he is orienting his posts towards him
as
if he is a spammer. To be honest, I think some of Douglas's posts do seem
a
*lot* like those of someone selling supplements. I sincerely apologize to
Douglas if
this is wrong, but Brian's recent lengthy responses to Douglas seemed
appropriate. Why has Douglas or anyone else never provided evidence that
he
does not sell supplements? When Brian says that Douglas is fudging his
numbers,
why do we never here back from Douglas, or anyone, saying, "no, on page
812, 10
lines down, the number actually *is* 44 months."? I'm sorry if I'm being
unfair, but
it doesn't make sense to me that we'd never hear any corrections to
Brian's claims.
But Brian's view of you (Ben) is that your articles are excellent, but
that you
have engaged in non-stop jabs at him for the last two years. He got fed
up,
and started insulting you back. Personally, I can't tell from the older
articles in
the archives who "started it," but, either way, it's definitely not as
clear-cut as
you paint it, IMO.
| Brian has recommending boycotting the CRAN list, so I haven't had
| to deal with the problem of him wanting to join.
Are you thinking of this ===>
BD:
| I would encourage people not to join his list, in the interests of
unity,
| but I'd hate to see anyone deprived of the chance to read Ben's
articles,
| which are often very well-researched.
That doesn't sound like a boycott recommendation to me. Was there
something
else?
| By contrast, the CRSOCIETY list is "wide open". Anyone on the list
| can send a message to Majordomo@lists.sni.net with a line that reads:
|
| who crsociety
|
| in the body of the message and receive a complete list of all CRSOCIETY
| subscribers.
Yes. I *really* don't like that.
Brian is discussing with others what the new form of the CR Society list
will be,
and is planning to have better security. We'll see.
Speaking of security, are you going to post archives of messages
somewhere? If
you are concered with security - which I think is good - maybe you should
make
any archives password protected, or remove the names, or something.
| Also, I don't think the CRSOCIETY list is maintained at all. My
| attempts to send Steve Mahalek a request to remove "benbest@io.org"
| from the list have fallen on deaf ears.
Yep. I've never received any responses from S.M. about *any* of the many
questions
I've asked him.
Anyway, I hope your phone call with Brian clears some of this up. Not
that I care
all that much. But I do think you are quite severely mistaken about him,
in
essentially everyway. (But I know him mostly from the archives.)
(And sorry if I'm sounding too much like an "advocate" for Brian. I'm an
advocate
of truth - at least I try to be - and I think that your views of him are
wrong in a way
that may block the ability of people on CR/CRAN/CRON to effectively trade
ideas
on the science of longevity.)
Derek.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 2 16:20:44 1997
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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:19:08 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
To: cranlist
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:42:53 -0500 (EST), Ben Best wrote:
>I believe that many supplements
>and dietary practices can extend lifespan -- and I place great value
>on extension of *both* MAXIMUM and MEAN lifespan. Nonetheless, unlike
>Douglas Skrecky -- who seems to think that the benefits of CRAN can
>be realized through low Glycemic Index foods, chromium picolinate, etc.
A very nice statement which I am in essential agreement with.
>-- I regard CRAN to be the Zeus of the pantheon. I believe CRAN operates
>by distinct mechanisms which cannot be replicated by supplements.
At the present time the weight of scientific evidence supports this.
However, I believe that there are sufficient, intolerable side effects
for many which appear to be unremediatable, that we should continually
seek and be open to the possibility that these "distinct mechanisms"
of CRAN can be fully achieved by other means. I believe that discussion
and communication of possible more tolerable replacements for CRAN
should not be considered as "undermin(ing) a primary focus on CRAN".
> I am not actively engaged in "outreach". At present I expect that
>nearly all, if not all, subscribers to this list have been seasoned
>subscribers to CRSOCIETY.
While I understand and sympathize with this view, Ben. But what you are
missing, I believe, is that the people from the CRSociety list *because*
of Brian Delaney's anti-supplement stances (following the teachings of
Roy Walford) may not be very conversant with the properties, uses of and
research behind supplements. If you wish to have an informed discussion
of supplements, you may need to infuse the group with some "new blood".
-- Paul --
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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:19:15 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
To: cranlist
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Reply to Derek's views on the Ben Best/Brian Delaney
situation.
Derek, I have know Ben personally for several years now and
can personally vouch for the fact that he is not the easiest
person to get along with (probably I am not also). We have
had many "altercations" between us, although we have always
"made-up" and become friendly and cooperative again because
we have a common goal with is simply much too important to
be subservient to our personal problems.
So as I have been observing these many disputes with Brian
Delaney, though I didn't blame Ben and even at first thought
Brian was the "worst" offender, I at least put it down some
what to my knowledge that Ben too was often difficult and
insensitive to the insulting effects of his words.
However, recently I have been witness to a discussion which
took place on sci.life-extension between Brain Delaney and
a "Tom Matthews" who frequently posts on sci.med.nutrition
and misc.health.alternative where he has shown himself to
be very helpful, knowledgeable and friendly except to those
who insist on attacking him. Because of these attributes,
he is highly respected on those ngs and has garnered many
friends and supporters. Interestingly, enough the discussion
between Brian and Tom degenerated into almost the same type
of "mess" as the discussions of Brian and Ben. Even to the
extent that Brian has now come up with his patented "slur"
that Tom's "problems" may be due to the fact that his native
language is not English (Tom is also Canadian). The discussion
did not become nearly as "wrangling" as did Brian and Ben's
because Tom has the good sense to see the way it was going
and to break off the discussion early (whereupon Brian
accused him of not having the "intelligence" to be able to
carry on -- Tom is an ex mathematician and physicist -- and
of having "lost" the "debate").
After witnessing this exchange, I am now convinced that the
major psychological problems lie with Brian. I believe that
many of his methods of argumentation are calculated, devious
and have ulterior motives designed to demean and put-down his
"opponent" rather than to openly search for the truth. It is
very difficult for me to decide how to regard someone like
this who clearly has at the same time a wealth of knowledge
and excellent reasoning skills from which I might benefit.
>| Brian Delaney seems to believe that Caloric Restriction
>| and ONLY Caloric Restriction can extend lifespan (and he
>| seems only concerned with MAXIMUM lifespan rather than
>| MEAN lifespan).
>Both of these statements are not correct, as far as I could see in the
>archives. The
>first statement may not be far off, but I think for Brian the issue there
>is existence of evidence.
I think that you must be very careful in the way that you read Brian's
statements. I believe that his "lip service" to less extreme views
coming right after he has made a strong statement, is ingenuous at best.
>| Virulent attacks and misrepresentations by Brian Delaney against
>| Douglas Skrecky & me had a lot to do with forming this list.
>After emailing a little with Brian recently about this, I've discovered
>that his views of you and of Douglas Skrecky are entirely different.
>I don't think he would mind me saying this, since he's been public about it.
For the reasons stated above, I would strongly suggest that you not
accept his "words" about this but look more carefully at his (verbal) actions.
> Someone told him that D.S. sells chromium, and he is orienting
>his posts towards him as if he is a spammer.
But the question is why should he be so quick to accept such "gossip"
and act on it before verifying it?
> To be honest, I think some of Douglas's posts do seem a *lot* like
> those of someone selling supplements. I sincerely apologize to
> Douglas if this is wrong,
I agree with you here, and I have privately tried to give Doug some
constructive criticism in that respect.
> but Brian's recent lengthy responses to Douglas seemed appropriate.
Not until he had *verified* the "gossip". That he did so suggested that
he is not interest in *facts* but immediately accepts whatever supports
his "worldview". One must be very careful believing what such a person
says.
> Why has Douglas or anyone else never provided evidence that he
>does not sell supplements?
Why should anyone ever answer a question of the form "why do you beat
your wife?". Doug has the right to have his words accepted as honest
undistorted truth, and we have the duty to accept them as such until
and unless it is proven differently. Doug is total correct to simply
ignore and spurn such groundless and fabricated charges.
> When Brian says that Douglas is fudging his numbers, why do we
> never here back from Douglas, or anyone, saying, "no, on page
> 812, 10 lines down, the number actually *is* 44 months."?
I believe that this is because Brian seldom makes an "objective"
charge (ie that a specific number on a specific page is diferent
than Doug stated). His charges are all about "interpretation"
which are a personal attack on Doug's abilities for which no
objective reply is possible. Not that I don't have sympathy for
Brian's views here. I too think that many of Doug's interpretations
are very wrong. Frankly, Doug's work is another problem area for
me. I don't know how to glean value and knowledge from it.
>I'm sorry if I'm being unfair, but it doesn't make sense to me
> that we'd never hear any corrections to Brian's claims.
It make very good sense when you consider them in the "why do your
beat your wife?" manner that they are made.
>But Brian's view of you (Ben) is that your articles are excellent,
>but that you have engaged in non-stop jabs at him for the last two
>years. He got fed up, and started insulting you back.
Overly insensitive at best and disingenuous at worst.
>Personally, I can't tell from the older articles in the archives
>who "started it," but, either way, it's definitely not as clear-cut
>as you paint it, IMO.
I agree with you there. I think the problem arises because Ben is
insensitive at the effect and possible implied meaning of his remarks,
and Brian is too sensitive and reads far too many "hidden" meanings
into other's remarks (perhaps because he intentionally places a lot
of hidden and implied meanings into his own remarks).
>| Brian has recommending boycotting the CRAN list, so I haven't had
>| to deal with the problem of him wanting to join.
>Are you thinking of this ===>
>BD:
>| I would encourage people not to join his list, in the interests of
>unity,
>| but I'd hate to see anyone deprived of the chance to read Ben's
>articles,
>| which are often very well-researched.
>That doesn't sound like a boycott recommendation to me. Was there
>something else?
Derek, again you are being naieve! If Brian did not wish people to
boycott the CRAN list, why would he even mention such a possibility?
This is yet another example of Brian's "doublespeak" method of
"political" persuasion.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 2 17:07:30 1997
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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:05:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Deprenyl (Selegiline)
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I have recently read a paper on Selegiline [NEUROBIOLOGY OF AGING
18(3): 309-318 (1997)] that has made me a little self-conscious about my
recent statement concerning the life-extending properties of this
substance. ("Selegiline" is a synonym for the "L" form or Deprenyl, and
the former term is becoming more commonly used in the scientific community
than the latter.)
This study found *NO* extension of maximum lifespan of Male F344
rats with selegiline. One of the names on the paper is Gwen Ivy, who had
been a participant in an earlier study that found a small (2.3%) extension
of maximum lifespan with selegiline [LIFE SCIENCES 47:415-420 (1990)]. The
paper also had a summary of previous lifespan studies showing that all the
studies done by Joseph Knoll (who co-discovered selegiline in 1965) -- and
ONLY those by Knoll -- showed a lifespan increase in excess of 10%.
But selegiline *did* extend MEAN lifespan ("squaring the curve") and
showed improvement in spatial learning abilities of nearly one-third for
the "elderly" rats.
These benefits underscore what I see to be the philosophical
difference between my viewpoint and that of the CRSOCIETY (Brian Delaney).
For one thing, I place a high value on "squaring the curve". If I can
increase my probability of living to 120 years, then I have increased my
chances of benefitting from new life-extension technologies that are
bound to emerge in the years ahead. In fact, from the point of view of
"buying time" in an era of rapidly-changing biotechnology, extending
mean lifespan may be of nearly indistinguishable benefit from extending
maximum lifespan. We live in "interesting times", and our historical
context must not be forgotten.
Also, as I have stressed previously, lifespan is not the only factor
to consider in evaluating a regimen. Preservation of brain function is
*extremely* important also. I certainly don't want to live to 120 years
with the last 40 years dominated by a high degree of dimentia.
Brian would typically object that this study was not done with
Calorie-Restricted animals, and that additional benefits from selegiline
are therefore unlikely. I think the presumption here is that aging is
due to a few factors which are most effectively dealt-with by CRAN. By
contrast, I believe that aging is due to many factors. Moreover, the
most important ones (free radicals & glycation) can be susceptible to
more than one approach. I believe that CRAN reduces free-radical
production and glycation, but that anti-oxidants can be of value against
those free radicals that are produced. And low glycemic index foods can
complement the reduced glycation of CRAN. The influence of CRAN is
greater than the influence of supplements, because prevention is superior
to cure. But prevention and cure together are superior to either one
alone.
Admittedly, there is no definitive scientific proof for my beliefs,
but that doesn't mean there is no persuasive evidence. There is no
definitive proof that CRAN could extend human lifespan, either, but
the circumstantial evidence is very persuasive. In our current
"historical context", our survival depends upon our use of fragmentary
evidence.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 2 17:18:25 1997
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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:16:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: cran weekly activity report (Oct 26 1997 - Nov 02 1997)
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I don't want this list to become over-loaded with administrative
or "political" matters. Since this is the first week, however, I
think it is necessary to do so in order to set the stage for our
list.
I am sending the first week's activity report as a matter of
interest. Also, as a matter of interest is the fact that there are
now 40 subscribers to the CRAN list.
In the future, I will not be giving regular reports on activity
or list size.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
Mail Traffic Report for list 'cran' for Sun Nov 2 04:11:01 1997
========================================================================
Report interval: Since Sun Oct 26 00:00:01 1997 (7 days)
Oldest post: Mon Oct 27 22:18:19 1997
Most recent post: Fri Oct 31 21:28:47 1997
Total posts: 31
Report threshold:
========================================================================
Top 10 Posters (representing 100.0% of the total traffic)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
9 (29.0%) Ben Best
9 (29.0%) Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
6 (19.4%) Doug Skrecky
4 (12.9%) "Phil Harris"
1 ( 3.2%) Ian Eiloart
1 ( 3.2%) Darryl Rubin
1 ( 3.2%) ddmcneill1@juno.com (Derek D McNeill)
Top 10 Subjects (representing 93.5% of the total traffic)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 (32.3%) Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
4 (12.9%) resveratrol
3 ( 9.7%) re- resveratrol
2 ( 6.5%) Cross-posting
2 ( 6.5%) Publicity
2 ( 6.5%) HDL/LDL ratio
2 ( 6.5%) Which list?
2 ( 6.5%) Adequate Nutrition
1 ( 3.2%) lycopene again
1 ( 3.2%) 18'th update on fly longevity experiments
Distribution of posts by day (scale is 1.0 '*'s per post)
31 posts 2 posts/day min 10 posts/day max 4.4 posts/day avg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oct 31 ( 3)|***
Oct 30 ( 7)|*******
Oct 29 (10)|**********
Oct 28 ( 9)|*********
Oct 27 ( 2)|**
Distribution of posts by hour of the day (scale is 1.0 '*'s per post)
31 posts 0 posts/hr min 4 posts/hr max 1.3 posts/hr avg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
00.00 (1)|*
01.00 (3)|***
02.00 (2)|**
03.00 (3)|***
04.00 (0)|
05.00 (0)|
06.00 (0)|
07.00 (1)|*
08.00 (2)|**
09.00 (1)|*
10.00 (0)|
11.00 (1)|*
12.00 (0)|
13.00 (1)|*
14.00 (0)|
15.00 (2)|**
16.00 (2)|**
17.00 (0)|
18.00 (2)|**
19.00 (1)|*
20.00 (1)|*
21.00 (2)|**
22.00 (4)|****
23.00 (2)|**
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 2 20:25:06 1997
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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:22:08 CDT
Subject: Re: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
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From: ddmcneill1@juno.com (Derek D McNeill)
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Paul,
I appreciate your having responded in such detail to my post. It does
seem however that you are judging Brian quite unfairly.
As I said before I don't want to clutter this list with non-science, but
after such a lengthy "attack" on Brian on a list which he doesn't have
access to - I assume - I think it would be worthwhile to point out a few
things in his defence. Keep in mind that I am definitely not choosing
sides here. In fact, I think Ben and Brian are *both* responsible, about
equally. I think they should be locked in the Biosphere together for a
few months. (-:
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:19:15 -0500 Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
writes:
| Interestingly, enough the discussion between Brian and Tom degenerated
| into almost the same type of "mess" as the discussions of Brian and
Ben.
| Even to the extent that Brian has now come up with his patented "slur"
| that Tom's "problems" may be due to the fact that his native language
is
| not English (Tom is also Canadian).
I don't read sci.life-extension much, but Brian did mention that he has
only
had problems with Canadians, and seemed worried that maybe there's some
kind of "cultural" difference, as he put it, that is responsible for the
problems.
Maybe that's all he meant? a genuine concern with cultural differences?
| (whereupon Brian accused him of not having the "intelligence" to be
| able to carry on -- Tom is an ex mathematician and physicist -- and of
| having "lost" the "debate").
I find it *very* difficult to believe that Brian would say something like
that, unless T.M. insulted his intelligence first. Are you sure about
this? It
just does not sound like him at all.
| It is very difficult for me to decide how to regard someone like this
| who clearly has at the same time a wealth of knowledge and excellent
| reasoning skills from which I might benefit.
I had the same question when I was feeling skeptical about Brian - which
I
still am to some degree, by the way. But thinking about his knowledge and
intelligence is the thing that got me realizing that he has good reasons
to be
proud. Maybe this is why he reacts to Ben saying he's contradicting
himself
with such anger. And as far as I could judge, Ben was incorrect in at
least one of the instances when he was saying this, in the archies.
| >Both of these statements are not correct, as far as I could see in the
| >archives. The
| >first statement may not be far off, but I think for Brian the issue
there
| >is existence of evidence.
|
| I think that you must be very careful in the way that you read Brian's
| statements. I believe that his "lip service" to less extreme views
| coming right after he has made a strong statement, is ingenuous at
best.
I don't know. He seems to believe very strongly in vitamin E, for
example.
He just doesn't think there's any evidence that it "retards aging per
se", to
use his trademark words. Is he just wrong about taht?
| > Someone told him that D.S. sells chromium, and he is orienting
| > his posts towards him as if he is a spammer.
|
| But the question is why should he be so quick to accept such "gossip"
| and act on it before verifying it?
Good question. Maybe it's just htat there was enough evidence in D.S.'s
posts themselves?
| > When Brian says that Douglas is fudging his numbers, why do we
| > never here back from Douglas, or anyone, saying, "no, on page
| > 812, 10 lines down, the number actually *is* 44 months."?
|
| I believe that this is because Brian seldom makes an "objective"
| charge (ie that a specific number on a specific page is diferent
| than Doug stated). His charges are all about "interpretation"
| which are a personal attack on Doug's abilities for which no
| objective reply is possible.
I have to disagree here. Maybe there's a lot of "Brianana" that I've
missed
here (like in newsgroups). But from the archives, Biran's posts on Doug
have almost always included numbers and logic. I haven't heard back from
anyone about either Doug's *or* Brian's numbers, so I don't know what to
think there. But I've never seen a mistake in his logic.
The only reason I joined this list is to benefit from Ben's posts.
Everyone
else here will be contributing to the crsocieity list, as far as I can
tell. I will
feel uncomfortable if this list becomes a place where people post these
negative things about Brian, without letting him reply. Maybe some of
you should email him with your concerns. Has anyone ever done that?
(Ben? Doug? Paul?) I have found him to be excpetionally warm through
email. I suppose this is partly why I feel the need to defend him.
I don't know. Maybe it really is some kind of cultural problem. (I grew
up in Ireland by the way. I don't know if that's more like Canada or
the States).
Derek.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Mon Nov 3 02:28:11 1997
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From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Derek D McNeill wrote:
> I don't want to clutter this list with things other than science, but
> maybe just
> at the very beginning here it would be good to get straight on a few
> things.
I think this list is becoming very cluttered with things other than
science, and I have to accept responsibility for this. And I have wasted
too much time in the last couple of weeks dealing with the personality
Brian Delaney.
Therefore, I am not going to make every effort to avoid mentioning
Brian's name again on this list and I would plead with everyone to stop
discussion personality issues. I also regret characterizing Brian's
views in my discussion of list distinctions and selegiline. This is really
unfair because it doesn't give him a chance to respond. I apologize for
this.
And therefore, I have nothing more to say about your posting.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Mon Nov 3 10:13:04 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:12:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: cran@listservice.net
Subject: (fwd) Re: Glycemic Index & longevity
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Newsgroups: sci.life-extension,misc.health.alternative,sci.med.nutrition
From: Brian Manning Delaney
Gilbert Aubin wrote:
>Brian Manning Delaney (notarealaddress@tofoilbulkmail.ers) >wrote:
>:
>: > I didn't go after all those substances, because they
>: > all claim less increase in life span than
>: > chromium picolinate (44%). Not only rodent
>: > experiments can be found in the libraries, it seems
>: > that this has been used on humans two thousand
>: > years ago, with excellent results.
>:
>: Why do you believe this?
> OK, here we go with the classical education.
Thanks!
> In Cabysses, it is described that the Persian
> king sent out spies to Ethiopia to find out
> about the reason why the long lived Ethiopians
> lived so long....
And this is where you got the 44% figure?
> Check out the physical properties of picoline, a
> tar constituent that can easily separate from
> the heavier rest of the hydrocarbons under
> relatively high temperatures. It has a pungent
> smell, whether you can call it like 'violets' is
> for you to decide, but it is not easy to
> describe smells. It definitely has a lower
> specific weight than water, and there are
> several versions of it with different densities.
> I didn't check if wood would float on it,only
> made an estimate by looking at the numbers and
> at a piece of wood floating in water (the piece
> of wood is almost at level with the surface of
> the water, so the difference in density is
> probably less than a couple of percents). If you
> have access to picoline and do the floating test
> yourself, I would appreciate if you could let me
> know the results.
Will do! And you might do the following test for me. If you
consume a lot of chromium picolinate, and have been doing so
for at least one year (that part is important), a dark
tar-like substance builds up in your colon. It's almost
certainly harmless, so don't worry. Now, if you're feeling
adventurous, you might try to get some of this out, but it's
risky (a perforated colon can be deadly). You should be able
to get enough for the test from the anal canal and up into
the rectum, if you can reach that far. Just find something
about the size and shape of a popsicle stick (but make sure
it's moist and doesn't have splinters!! Sand if necessary)
and scrape using a circular motion. It might be easier (and
more fun!) to have someone else do this. You'll have to
repeat this circular scraping motion several times. The
yield is extremely low, since it's pretty well caked in
there, but, if you "purge" yourself beforehand (I recommend
"Go Litely"), the yield will be pure. Anyway, gather it up
in a little ball. It won't be bigger than a small pea,
unless you scraped really hard (ouch!). But you only need a
little bit. Drop it in a bowl of water and see if it floats.
If you do the purging part, the test is valid (and if you
didn't do the purging part, you can try to separate the
really dark matter from the, well, other yucky stuff). If it
floats, then you know your CrPicolinate is authentic, as
opposed to being one of those other kinds of chromium
(chromium chloride, etc.) that are alleged to be in formulas
claiming to contain only CrPicolinate.
Anyway, if you do the test, let us know the results.
Thanks!
By the way, I read once that the Ethiopians would sometimes
do this test and _smoke_ the little picoline tar ball
afterwards (I guess the way people smoke hashish or hash
oil). DO NOT DO this! Chromium, when air-borne, is extremely
toxic. It's a widely recognized occupational hazard for
certain industries.
Brian.
--
Brian Manning Delaney
My email address is here:
http://xyz.uchicago.edu/users/bmdelane/email.htm
[Wrists: "Leave unambiguous typos."]
Note: All statements in this article are in jest; they
are not statements of fact.
"Mein Genie ist in meinen Nuestern." -Nietzsche.
** Please do not CC your Usenet articles to me. I'll find
them.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Mon Nov 3 10:33:39 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:33:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
cc: cranlist
Subject: Re: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
In-Reply-To: <199711021820_MC2-267A-22B6@compuserve.com>
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Paul Wakfer wrote:
> > Someone told him that D.S. sells chromium, and he is orienting
> >his posts towards him as if he is a spammer.
>
> But the question is why should he be so quick to accept such "gossip"
> and act on it before verifying it?
>
>
> > Why has Douglas or anyone else never provided evidence that he
> >does not sell supplements?
>
> Why should anyone ever answer a question of the form "why do you beat
> your wife?". Doug has the right to have his words accepted as honest
> undistorted truth, and we have the duty to accept them as such until
> and unless it is proven differently. Doug is total correct to simply
> ignore and spurn such groundless and fabricated charges.
>
This is my position entirely. However just to set the record straight:
**I do not and have never sold any supplements.**
(-and I would like to know who started this rumour, as I
have a few things I would like to say to this person.)
> > When Brian says that Douglas is fudging his numbers, why do we
> > never here back from Douglas, or anyone, saying, "no, on page
> > 812, 10 lines down, the number actually *is* 44 months."?
>
> I believe that this is because Brian seldom makes an "objective"
> charge (ie that a specific number on a specific page is diferent
> than Doug stated). His charges are all about "interpretation"
> which are a personal attack on Doug's abilities for which no
> objective reply is possible.
>
This is my view of the matter as well.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Mon Nov 3 15:57:24 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:55:07 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
To: cranlist
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:22:08 CDT, Derek D McNeill wrote:
>It does seem however that you are judging Brian quite unfairly.
>As I said before I don't want to clutter this list with non-science,
I too don't want to clutter the list with non-science.
I just want to say two things:
1) If I easily took offense, your statement about could be taken
as an insult to my judgement capabilities. A less invective and
wiser form of the statement would be "I believe that the
characterisation of Brian that you have described is unfair".
The second statement is not aimed "at the person". I hope you
see the difference.
2) I have not irreversably "made up my mind" on Brian. As with
everything in this world, I remain open to be changed by new
evidence. IMO, at this time, the weight of evidence points to
the conclusion that I described in detail in my last post. On
this you and I must simply "agree to disagree". I am happy to do
so. I hope you are.
I have responded to the rest of your reply privately.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 4 16:55:23 1997
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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:53:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: GRAINS and the "Food Pyramid"
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I have been looking at the FDA's "Food Pyramid" and am wondering why
the base of the pyramid is "grains". This seems more like superstition
and tradition than science to me -- allusions to the building of pyramids
with the emergence of agriculture, or (perhaps) "give us this day our
daily bread".
Has anyone seen a more scientific (or any scientific explanation at
all) for the "Food Pyramid" with grains at the bottom?
The base of my "Food Pyramid" is vegetables.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 4 22:19:11 1997
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Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:21:05 -0500
To: CRAN@ListService.net
From: Mike Coward
Subject: AN and the "Food Pyramid"
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At 06:53 PM 11/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
> I have been looking at the FDA's "Food Pyramid" and am wondering why
>the base of the pyramid is "grains". This seems more like superstition
>and tradition than science to me -- allusions to the building of pyramids
>with the emergence of agriculture, or (perhaps) "give us this day our
>daily bread".
>
> Has anyone seen a more scientific (or any scientific explanation at
>all) for the "Food Pyramid" with grains at the bottom?
>
I think grains are the easiest source of vitamins and minerals
for the average person to get and like.
Note that most bread is grown in dirt as nutrient rich as styrafoam
and is essentially made of complex suger.
"Eat some sugar.
It tastes good,
and if your lucky enough to get it from a farmer kind and rich enough
to fertilize his soil with more than NPK
(if he does, he's not rich any more),
it MAY even be good for you."
Who would listen to a chart
telling them to get all their food from General Nutrition Centers (GNC)?
> The base of my "Food Pyramid" is vegetables.
> Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
> http://www.benbest.com/
Here's my very simple food chart in order of importance:
1-Amino acids for calories and production of neurotransmitters;
2-Vitamins/minerals for cellular spare parts, anti-oxys, and stuff;
3-Fiber for avoiding hemorroids;
4-Fatty acids because I'm sure I need at least a little; and
5-Sugar for inhibiting production of neurotransmitters when I'm stressed.
I do not really like common foods
because I tailer my intake of these things
to the necessity in my present condition in life
and when I want vitamin C
I do not want: water, fiber, viamins, minerals, and sugar from an orange.
Nutrition is my medicine.
Common foods have MANY side effects.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Nov 5 03:14:14 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:12:23 +0100
To: CRAN@ListService.net
From: Felix Ungman
Subject: Re: GRAINS and the "Food Pyramid"
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Ben Best:
> I have been looking at the FDA's "Food Pyramid" and am wondering why
>the base of the pyramid is "grains". This seems more like superstition
>and tradition than science to me -- allusions to the building of pyramids
>with the emergence of agriculture, or (perhaps) "give us this day our
>daily bread".
The Pyramid is tradition probably because it's based on the way people
actually cook & eat. So I dont give it much scientific credit.
I've adopted the Exchange System, which I think originally was designed
for diabetics. Although the basic classificaion is similar to the Pyramid,
there are several interesting improvements:
- categorisation is done on food content (not origin), e.g. bacon belongs to
the fat group. calculating fat, carb, prot, fiber and sugar is simple.
- each category is quantified on calories (e.g. 1 Veg Exchange is 25 kcal).
its fairly easy to estimate the calories of a meal.
- the meat and milk categories are subdivied into lo, med, and hi fat groups.
So although the recommendations still are pretty much the average diet
(more or less true for all FDA recommendations), the Exchange System
is very flexible, and easy to customize to a CR eating plan.
/felix
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Nov 5 11:01:50 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:59:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: AN and the "Food Pyramid"
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On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Mike Coward wrote:
> I think grains are the easiest source of vitamins and minerals
> for the average person to get and like.
> Note that most bread is grown in dirt as nutrient rich as styrafoam
> and is essentially made of complex suger.
> "Eat some sugar.
> It tastes good,
> and if your lucky enough to get it from a farmer kind and rich enough
> to fertilize his soil with more than NPK
> (if he does, he's not rich any more),
> it MAY even be good for you."
These are just speculations, in addition to my own. What I would
really like to see is the historical origin of the "food pyramid"
(which is so commonly distributed). I have given-up on a scientific
justification, because I doubt that there is one.
> Here's my very simple food chart in order of importance:
> 1-Amino acids for calories and production of neurotransmitters;
> 2-Vitamins/minerals for cellular spare parts, anti-oxys, and stuff;
> 3-Fiber for avoiding hemorroids;
> 4-Fatty acids because I'm sure I need at least a little; and
> 5-Sugar for inhibiting production of neurotransmitters when I'm stressed.
Very interesting. You didn't mention carbohydrates. Might not
complex carbohydrates accomplish your objective in 5 and yet not have
the high Glycemic Index of sugar?
Actually, I would rate vitamins/minerals of equal importance with
the essential amino acids. These are the substances without which you are
sure to get deficiency disease. Essential amino acids are needed for
production of many necessary cellular structures besides
neurotransmitters.
Amino acid for calories isn't a bad idea unless you subscribe to
the "kidney stress" theory of excess protein, which I question. I prefer
protein as my calorie source for my morning and midday meals because
carbohydrates make me sleepy. Also, proteins prevent muscle wasting,
(especially whey protein), which is especially important for an person
practicing CRAN who is in "weight-loss" mode.
Essential fatty acids are also necessary to prevent deficiency
disease, although it takes longer for these deficiency diseases to
develop, I believe, since the body stores fats so readily. Some fat
is also necessary to help absorption of fat-soluble vitamins.
This may be more important than avoiding hemorroids, but that's
just my opinion.
I would like a fuller explanation of "5". Do you have any
references for this?
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Nov 5 13:28:28 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:20:32 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: GRAINS and the "Food Pyramid"
To: cranlist
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On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:53:49 -0500 (EST), Ben Best wrote:
> I have been looking at the FDA's "Food Pyramid"
I don't think it is the "FDA'S" Food Pyramid. I think it "belongs to" or
is "promulgated by" the USDA.
> and am wondering why
>the base of the pyramid is "grains". This seems more like superstition
>and tradition than science to me -- allusions to the building of pyramids
>with the emergence of agriculture, or (perhaps) "give us this day our
>daily bread".
>
> Has anyone seen a more scientific (or any scientific explanation at
>all) for the "Food Pyramid" with grains at the bottom?
> The base of my "Food Pyramid" is vegetables.
However, I agree with you criticism.
Another quote would be speaking of bread as "the staff of life".
An enormous number of people are alergic to grains of one form or another.
Such problems may play a sub-clinical role in a vast number of disease
conditions. Humans did not evolve to eat a lot of grain which has only
been consumed in quantity within the last 10,000 years of the life of the
human species.
There is a very large anti-grain (return to a paleolithic diet) group of
posters on the Internet. While I don't anywhere near agree with all their
views, some of their points as above, make some sense.
My current diet has no more grain than about one or two slices of sprouted
multigrain bread daily.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Nov 5 13:28:30 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:20:36 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: AN and the "Food Pyramid"
To: cranlist
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Hi Mike,
Again, I think some of what you wrote is right on. And some is
quite misguided.
By my criticism will be much gentler this time. :-)
-- Paul --
On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:21:05 -0500, Mike Coward wrote:
> I have been looking at the FDA's "Food Pyramid" and am wondering why
>the base of the pyramid is "grains". This seems more like superstition
>and tradition than science to me -- allusions to the building of pyramids
>with the emergence of agriculture, or (perhaps) "give us this day our
>daily bread".
>
> Has anyone seen a more scientific (or any scientific explanation at
>all) for the "Food Pyramid" with grains at the bottom?
>
I think grains are the easiest source of vitamins and minerals
for the average person to get and like.
Yes, and I think this is the main reason why they are at the base of the
food pyramid. The reason is practical and has little to do with their
overall nutritional benefit.
>Note that most bread is grown in dirt as nutrient rich as styrafoam
>and is essentially made of complex suger.
But the same could be said (or not said) for almost anything which is
cultivated. What we should be doing is redepositing our bodily waste
back into the soil where our foods are grown. That's what animals do
in nature and thats what the ecology has evolved to require.
>"Eat some sugar.
>It tastes good,
But sugars are the "cleanest burning" fuel, I believe, and have always
been a major component of omniverous animal diets.
>> The base of my "Food Pyramid" is vegetables.
>Here's my very simple food chart in order of importance:
>1-Amino acids for calories and production of neurotransmitters;
>2-Vitamins/minerals for cellular spare parts, anti-oxys, and stuff;
>3-Fiber for avoiding hemorroids;
>4-Fatty acids because I'm sure I need at least a little; and
>5-Sugar for inhibiting production of neurotransmitters when I'm stressed.
This chart is too simplistic and uninformed concerning the real needs of
your body, including your precious brain.
1) The USDA food pyramid it base one quantities to be eat as I understand it,
not on importance, however *that* might be defined.
2) Amino acids are by no means the best form to attain you calories. If you
attempt to attain the bulk of your calories from amino acid, this will be
very hard on you kidney and will likely lead to early kidney failure, IMO.
3) Amino acids are predominately needed for formation all the many many
species of proteins which our bodies need to function and which our DNA
produces. Neurotransmitters are just one important subclass of these.
4) Vitamins/minerals are not for "spare parts" at all. They are most for
"catolytic" purposes. Although some are important contstutients of certain
proteins and some cellular building blocks.
5) "Fiber for avoiding hemorroids" (and other digestive problems, plus its
anti cholesterol effect, etc) is good.
6) "Sugar for inhibiting production of neurotransmitters when I'm stressed"
needs to be explained. Sugar is much more fundamentally needed that whatever
it is that your are thinking out here.
>I do not really like common foods because I tailer my intake of these things
>to the necessity in my present condition in life and when I want vitamin C
>I do not want: water, fiber, viamins, minerals, and sugar from an orange.
Again, I am in sympathy with the approach. I have no doubt that in the far
future we will have sufficient to knowledge and control to tailor our
nutrient intake to be optimal for our the immediate body needs relative to
its current desired task. However, again, I believe this is far off and we
can do ourselves great harm if we assume that we can practice that in any
*direct* manner today.
>Nutrition is my medicine.
A laudable ambition.
> Common foods have MANY side effects.
Yes, but at the moment they must remain the "base" of our diet.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Nov 5 20:18:51 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:53:57 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: AN and the "Food Pyramid"
To: cranlist
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Mike,
Obviously, your reply shows that your first post did not mean
at all what it appeared to mean and what I replied to.
Thus, we were talking about two totally different things and
I don't see any sense replying to your reply. If you do want
to have a dialogue here, then you will have to start back at
square one and give enough detail to explain yourself.
Understand first of all that the Food Pryamid is
supposed to describe the *total* of what one should eat.
Since in your first list of 5 things, you gave no indication
of eating *any* real foods such as fruits and oatmeal which
you now say you eat, *that* is what I replied to. You have
now changed what you appeared to be saying which at the same
time makes my first reply pointless. I was not at all
disagreeing with many things that you imply I was in your
response.
Not a fair way to play. :-)
-- Paul --
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:32:58 -0500
To: crsociety@lists.sni.net
From: Mike Coward
Subject: Re: AN and the "Food Pyramid"
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At 03:20 PM 11/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Mike,
>
>Again, I think some of what you wrote is right on. And some is
>quite misguided.
I'll keep trying.
>
>By my criticism will be much gentler this time. :-)
Thank you.
>
>-- Paul --
>
>On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:21:05 -0500, Mike Coward wrote:
>
>> I have been looking at the FDA's "Food Pyramid" and am wondering why
>>the base of the pyramid is "grains". This seems more like superstition
>>and tradition than science to me -- allusions to the building of pyramids
>>with the emergence of agriculture, or (perhaps) "give us this day our
>>daily bread".
>>
>> Has anyone seen a more scientific (or any scientific explanation at
>>all) for the "Food Pyramid" with grains at the bottom?
>>
>
>I think grains are the easiest source of vitamins and minerals
>for the average person to get and like.
>
>Yes, and I think this is the main reason why they are at the base of the
>food pyramid. The reason is practical and has little to do with their
>overall nutritional benefit.
>
>>Note that most bread is grown in dirt as nutrient rich as styrafoam
>>and is essentially made of complex suger.
>
>But the same could be said (or not said) for almost anything which is
>cultivated.
That is why I depend mostly on supliments for vitaminerals.
>What we should be doing is redepositing our bodily waste
>back into the soil where our foods are grown.
I would rather treat my waste at home.
Collection would be a mess;
people would be too embarassed.
It would require culturing a younger generation;
most adults are to stubborn
to learn how to play with their food
after it's been digested(old dog, new tricks).
>That's what animals do
>in nature and thats what the ecology has evolved to require.
>
>>"Eat some sugar.
>>It tastes good,
>
>But sugars are the "cleanest burning" fuel, I believe, and have always
>been a major component of omniverous animal diets.
I remember at least one abstract suggesting
starch fed CRing rodents live longer than suger fed ones,
and in less I am , yet again, oversimplifying starches become sugars.
Sorry, I would have to rehunt for a referance (computer crashed).
It's on Medline and I think it was on this list about 6 months ago.
>
>>> The base of my "Food Pyramid" is vegetables.
>
>>Here's my very simple food chart in order of importance:
>>1-Amino acids for calories and production of neurotransmitters;
>>2-Vitamins/minerals for cellular spare parts, anti-oxys, and stuff;
>>3-Fiber for avoiding hemorroids;
>>4-Fatty acids because I'm sure I need at least a little; and
>>5-Sugar for inhibiting production of neurotransmitters when I'm stressed.
>
>This chart is too simplistic and uninformed concerning the real needs of
>your body, including your precious brain.
Yes, it is VERY SIMPLISTIC and UNINFORMING of MANY important needs.
>
>1) The USDA food pyramid it base one quantities to be eat as I understand it,
>not on importance, however *that* might be defined.
>
>2) Amino acids are by no means the best form to attain you calories. If you
>attempt to attain the bulk of your calories from amino acid, this will be
>very hard on you kidney and will likely lead to early kidney failure, IMO.
I'm probably not as strict as you think I am.
I usually eat aminos when I will need calories in a few hours,
and I usually sit in front of a computer all day
getting about 100 cal/hour
eating 3 fruits/day (with sugar)
and 1 oat meal/day (with stach)
because I have no better source of fiber.
>
>3) Amino acids are predominately needed for formation all the many many
>species of proteins which our bodies need to function and which our DNA
>produces. Neurotransmitters are just one important subclass of these.
Absorbing aminos before sugar/starch leads to geater mental performance.
I'll guess by 15 IQ points or so.
>
>4) Vitamins/minerals are not for "spare parts" at all. They are most for
>"catolytic" purposes. Although some are important contstutients of certain
>proteins and some cellular building blocks.]
I call processes/constituents/blocks parts,
So I'm an oversimplifying kind of guy,
it gives me confidence to tackle these sorts of problems. :-)
>>5) "Fiber for avoiding hemorroids" (and other digestive problems, plus its
>anti cholesterol effect, etc) is good.
>
>6) "Sugar for inhibiting production of neurotransmitters when I'm stressed"
>needs to be explained. Sugar is much more fundamentally needed that whatever
>it is that your are thinking out here.
Tryptophan and tyrosine (I think)
are effected by protein and sugar intake.
One leads to good thinking and one leads to good meditating.
I have not completly cut sugar/starch out of my diet;
I certainly am not trying to eliminate blood sugar this way,
but it's low.
>
>>I do not really like common foods because I tailer my intake of these
things
>>to the necessity in my present condition in life and when I want vitamin C
>>I do not want: water, fiber, viamins, minerals, and sugar from an orange.
>
>Again, I am in sympathy with the approach. I have no doubt that in the far
>future we will have sufficient to knowledge and control to tailor our
>nutrient intake to be optimal for our the immediate body needs relative to
>its current desired task. However, again, I believe this is far off and we
>can do ourselves great harm if we assume that we can practice that in any
>*direct* manner today.
Well, that's what diets are for.
Ask a sportsman to eat a normal( continental?)
diet during training for the big event.
Ask a life-extensionist to eat a normal diet for the rest of their life.
Hey, ask a diabetic to eat a normal diet.
They all eat in certain ways to perform better.
I may not be on the best diet in the galaxy
but it's a hell of a lot better than normal. :-)
>
>>Nutrition is my medicine.
>
>A laudable ambition.
>
>> Common foods have MANY side effects.
>
>Yes, but at the moment they must remain the "base" of our diet.
>
>
>-- Paul --
>
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Nov 5 22:16:16 1997
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Ben pleaded with everyone on the CRAN list not to post anything about
Brian and yet there were three posts all critical of Brian *after* Ben's
plea.
Part of Ben's reasons for asking people not to talk about this is
that Brian can't respond. So I hope Ben will allow me to forward this
response
from Brian. I didn't mention any names in reporting of things to Brain
except Douglas's, which would have been easy for Brian to guess anyway.
I'm sick of feeling like I have to mediate here, but, as I told Paul
through email,
all this disinformation smells a like witch hunt. I don't need to have
the last
word. I can handle one brief response to this. But please stop there.
Derek.
Brian Delaney wrote:
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
My "Deep Throat" person hadn't mentioned Doug's forwarding of my Usenet
post. I'm not surprised Doug didn't give the context.
For the record, Gilbert Aubin, in a previous post, called me a "debunker"
and
told me I was "expendable," (saying that people like me shouldn't
practice
life-extension -- we don't need them to be around for "hundreds of
years").
This was in response to a post of mine in which I said that Tom Matthews
was wrong about his claim that a bunch of substances had extended maximum
life span. Gilbert first said: "How can you say this? Can you read?...."
OK,
dude.
So when I responded to his second flame-baiting post with a bit of humor,
I
thought I was being entirely appropriate (unless you think flaming is
_never_
appropriate, as I did before the Anti-Spam Conference I told you about --
and
then there's Plato). There are a LOT of gullible people on the Internet,
and if
someone takes that 44% figure seriously....
As for Tom Matthews, I don't know what to say. We had a very good
discussion
going, and then he just retreated into claims of "differences in taste."
Partly I
guess I was frustrated because I had taken him to be both serious and
intelligent,
and expected that he wouldn't manifest the gross misunderstanding (the
first of
several) that he did -- to wit, that a claim that "it's reasonable to do
X" can only
be a matter of taste, at least for the purposes of our discussion. Or
maybe he was
just trying to duck out of an argument he knew he was losing. That's not
to say
he can't admit he's wrong, in general -- it could be that he felt that he
couldn't
admit that the evidence for supplements isn't as strong as he thought
because of
his financial connection to The Life Extension Foundation. I really don't
know.
I can't imagine anyone from The Life Extension Foundation would "order"
him
to do that.
The other thing about Tom that's funny is that he kept telling me that I
was the
one who insulted his intelligence, whereas in fact it was he who first
insulted
mine, as far as I could see. And I even pointed out the place where he
did this,
and he never said either: "Sorry, not what I meant," or "But look one
article
back, where you started it...." That would have been very easy to do,
easier that
what he did instead, which is to say something like, ~"I don't have time
for
arrogant, .... people like you." I'm still willing to try again with him,
though
he so far appears unwilling.
That misattribution from Your Deep Throat (YDT -- who may or may not be
Paul Wakfer; no need to give additional info on this) really pisses me
off. It's
so obvious that it was Pete Jensen who insulted Tom Matthews that it's
almost
tempting to say that YDT _lied_ outright here. But that's hard to
believe,
especially if it's Paul (whom I like, by the way -- and with whom I never
publicly disagreed, as far as I'm aware, so I don't know why he's
manifesting
symptoms of this pandemic ego-fragility problem; it's probably just that
he's
friends with these people, or maybe it's nationalism of some kind -- who
the
Hell knows). Maybe YDT thinks Pete is another one of my "adherents," and
can
be considered to BE me, in essence. (I don't even know the guy
personally, by
the way, although I'm pretty sure he used to post on Sci.life-extension a
long,
long time ago, using a student account from the Univ. of Florida or
Georgia or
somewhere down there.) But still, saying that I said Tom's intelligence
isn't up
for the discussion and not "Brian, speaking through one of his adherents,
says..."
would be pretty sleazy.
About Doug. There's a long story there. First, again, I have to fight
(not that
hard, at this point...) my instincts to be nice because of what I learned
via the
anti-spam fora. But I actually was very nice to Doug at the beginning
(well, at least
I wasn't _non_-nice). And then it became clear that he wasn't interested
in
discussion. My comments to him were going into a void. And he kept
posting the
same bogus pseudo-science. Even if I had entirely discounted the rumor
that he sells
chromium, his posts fit perffectly one of the two spammer profiles (the
other being the
anecdotal evidence-providng spammer). That's when I started getting
angry. The
thing that made me more than a little angry was his posts in the style of
the recent
one to the guy who asked about fasting. That was truly vicious (in the
sense of
manifesting vice): saying something false to an innocent newcomer who
simply
had asked a question in an attempt to learn more (as Edgar Denny pointed
out,
to whom Doug responded dismissively: "Calm down").
About Ben, I don't know. When I feel bad about all of this, it centers on
Ben,
whom I think I may have misjudged. I do think he has some fairly serious
personality problems. And his "you're directly contradicting yourself"
claims
and various other attempts to score -- as I see it -- debating points are
certainly
annoying (and always wrong, as far as I can remembmer), but these are the
sorts of things people sometimes say when they're trying to get through
to
someone they think is wrong. Understandable (for the most part).
(By the way, I don't think I should say what came of our plans to talk on
the
phone, since this is a private matter. Ask Ben if you want.)
Of course, then there's the stuff about the God of CR being a "Jealous
God...?!?" In
moments like those.... Well, in short, I was greatly disappointed to see
that Ben
would characterize my views so simplistically.
I actually think a "9999 Society" commune would not solve most of these
problems. I see the main problem here as a bunch of men worried about how
well-endowed they are, so to speak. I just want to say: Jeez, shut up and
_use_ the
damn thing, no matter the size!! ("Use" in the metaphorical sense _only_
:) But who
knows. Although ego-solidification and education can go a long, long way
in my view.... well, you know the rest....
(deletia)
This is getting tedious -- though I appreciate your keeping me apprised
of the
articles on the Brian Is The Root of All Evil list.
(....)
Yes, feel free to forward this, or parts of this, if you judge it wise. I
wrote it
under the asssumption that you would do so.
Go raibh maith agat,
Brian
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Nov 6 12:57:23 1997
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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:55:26 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: AN and the "Food Pyramid"
To: cranlist
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On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:45:52 -0500, Mike Coward wrote:
>>Obviously, your reply shows that your first post did not mean
>>at all what it appeared to mean and what I replied to.
>>Thus, we were talking about two totally different things and
>>I don't see any sense replying to your reply.
>...but you did reply.
No I didn't! I METAreplied! Not the same thing at all.
This one is a reply.
>I hate it when I do that. :-)
Yes, you *should* hate it when you don't understand and make mistakes. :-)
>>If you do want
>>to have a dialogue here, then you will have to start back at
>>square one and give enough detail to explain yourself.
>I want to know what other people think about my dietary practices,
But you didn't describe them enough to make anyone understand what your
dietary practices were. Instead you made me go off on a tangent and
reply to something which wasn't there. Not a nice thing to do to someone.
>but I'm not sure which square YOU are talking about.
Restart with your first post and explain it more fully. Something which
has now been accomplished by your second message and now this one.
*After* I had wasted time replying to your first one, of course. Time is
life! I do not like having my time wasted.
>>Understand first of all that the Food Pryamid is
>>supposed to describe the *total* of what one should eat.
>I have no idea what you mean by *total*.
>Describing a bundle of nutrients as a fruit or vegatable
>hardly explains it's total nutritional value.
First, there are tables which give a fair approximation to the nutrient
content of any fruit or vegetable. Second, fruits and vegetables are
complex enough that all nutrients in them have not yet been classified.
So at the present time "100 grams of naval orange" is about the best
that we can do by way of a complete description of its total nutritional
value.
>>Since in your first list of 5 things, you gave no indication
>>of eating *any* real foods such as fruits and oatmeal which
>>you now say you eat, *that* is what I replied to.
>Sorry, I'm confused. :-(
>Were you thinking I did not eat "real foods" AT ALL?
>I'm not that rich.
We were discussing the food pyramid which is a list of categories of
whole foods. You presented what appeared to be an alternative to the
food pyramid. I did not know whether you personally actually ate only
and directly those 5 things or not. But the way you presented them
suggested very strongly to me that you thought only those 5 things,
without any whole real foods, were necessary for healthy life. *That*
is what I critiqued.
>I was trying to express my concern
>that I need to count things IN real foods
>and not counting real foods entirely.
But there is a lot more important and necessary things in the real
foods that were on your list.
>That suggests the way I decide what to eat and act:
>I want to relax for a few hours so I eat an apple for the sugar.
But what you *get* (and a good thing too) is a lot more than just
the sugar.
>I will prepare to lose a few points of intelligence
>so I will not study foreign languages.
You may or may not there are host of other variables involved.
>The fiber means I may have a bowel movement in a few hours
>so I will not spend the evening at my friends house.
Not very likely from one apple.
>The vitamin and mineral content means
>I will not take my supliments for a while.
There are lots of important minerals and vitamins not in any apple.
>If I'm water-fasting I will not eat the juicy apple.
Apples do not have a particularly high water content, only 84%.
Most fruits and a great many vegetables have more.
You need all the water you get with an apple just to digest and
eliminate its nutrients properly.
>One apple leads to all these benifits and restrictions.
Not quite so automated and simplistic as you imply
>I decide what I will eat based on what I had the hour before
>and what I have not had over the course of the day.
I think that most of us do the same, or we plan ahead to that meals
are coordinated that way. Bear in mind that you don't need to balance
some things over the course of one day. For many things, the course
of a week is sufficient. Others should be taken in more often than
daily.
This is my last reply since this is cluttering the list with banter
instead of science.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Nov 7 00:04:15 1997
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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:02:17 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: AN and the "Food Pyramid"
To: cranlist
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Paul Wakfer wrote:
>This is my last reply
So I lied! ;) It's hard to resist you Mike.
Much of the following is more conversation which is irrelevant
to this list and I apologize to others. If anyone wishes just
ask me to stop and I will.
On Thu, 06 Nov 1997 17:47:47 -0500, Mike Coward wrote:
>This post makes me feel soOHH GOod. >:-(
Glad I'm helping you achieve such happiness.
>At 02:55 PM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:45:52 -0500, Mike Coward wrote:
>>
>>>>Obviously, your reply shows that your first post did not mean
>>>>at all what it appeared to mean and what I replied to.
>>>>Thus, we were talking about two totally different things and
>>>>I don't see any sense replying to your reply.
>>
>>>...but you did reply.
>>
>>No I didn't! I METAreplied! Not the same thing at all.
>>This one is a reply.
>
>(I was wrong, metareplying is not a subset of replying.)
Correct. A metareply is a newly initiated thread talking *about*
the other thread, not the issues *internal* to that thread.
(I erred in not changing the subject line to make that clear.)
>>>I hate it when I do that. :-)
>>
>>Yes, you *should* hate it when you don't understand and make mistakes. :-)
>
>(I was a fool and screwed up )
Not at all, you just acted normal (for a change).
>>>>If you do want
>>>>to have a dialogue here, then you will have to start back at
>>>>square one and give enough detail to explain yourself.
>
>>>I want to know what other people think about my dietary practices,
>
>>But you didn't describe them enough to make anyone understand what your
>>dietary practices were. Instead you made me go off on a tangent and
>>reply to something which wasn't there. Not a nice thing to do to someone.
>(I am uninformative, psychologicly manipulative and not nice.)
All the wrong words.
Uninformative does not equal lacking enough detail to be understood.
Psychologically manipulative does not imply accidently causing someone
to go astry.
And I never said *you* were not nice (in fact, from what I have seen,
you seem to be a neat and interesting person), only that the unintended
result of your action was not nice.
In addition, I certainly bear some of the blame for interpreting your
message as I did. More detail in future would be appreciated. Probably,
next time I just won't respond until I am certain what your cryptic
message is about.
>>>but I'm not sure which square YOU are talking about.
>>
>>Restart with your first post and explain it more fully. Something which
>>has now been accomplished by your second message and now this one.
>>*After* I had wasted time replying to your first one, of course. Time is
>>life! I do not like having my time wasted.
>(I'm a waste of time and a waste of life.)
Not at all what I said or meant.
>>>>Understand first of all that the Food Pryamid is
>>>>supposed to describe the *total* of what one should eat.
>>
>>>I have no idea what you mean by *total*.
>>>Describing a bundle of nutrients as a fruit or vegatable
>>>hardly explains it's total nutritional value.
>
>>First, there are tables which give a fair approximation to the nutrient
>>content of any fruit or vegetable. Second, fruits and vegetables are
>>complex enough that all nutrients in them have not yet been classified.
>(1 I'm wrong
You are not wrong. The level of food analysis and nutritional biochemistry
is simply not up to your required capabilities.
>2 I'm Ignorant)
All of us are ignorant in the sense that there is a vast amount which we
don't know and need to know if we are to survive.
>>So at the present time "100 grams of naval orange" is about the best
>>that we can do by way of a complete description of its total nutritional
>>value.
>
>>>>Since in your first list of 5 things, you gave no indication
>>>>of eating *any* real foods such as fruits and oatmeal which
>>>>you now say you eat, *that* is what I replied to.
>
>>>Sorry, I'm confused. :-(
>>>Were you thinking I did not eat "real foods" AT ALL?
>>>I'm not that rich.
>
>>We were discussing the food pyramid which is a list of categories of
>>whole foods. You presented what appeared to be an alternative to the
>>food pyramid. I did not know whether you personally actually ate only
>>and directly those 5 things or not.
>(If I do not say it, it must be true)
Not at all. But when that discussion is about one thing and you start
discussing something different, you ought to warn us that you are taking
a different approach and relate it to the old base. In fact, your
different slant on foods was a perfectly reasonable thing to bring up. I
just didn't appreciate making a vacuous post because you didn't make it
clear that it was a different slant. Don't forget we had just finished a
"far out" dialogue on the CRSociety list, so I thought "here is this neat,
but far out guy making another far out post connecting things in a far out
way".
>>But the way you presented them
>>suggested very strongly to me that you thought only those 5 things,
>>without any whole real foods, were necessary for healthy life. *That*
>>is what I critiqued.
>If whole foods is what we need
>then most people have a meat deficiency
>because no one eats whole cows, chickens, sheep, turkeys, or pigs.
>Have you thought about that?
Many years ago. When I ate meat, I always ate the whole meat. I ate all
the organs even calf brains at one time. When I was a hunter, I used and
ate the whole animal (sorry I didn't eat the fur or the porcupine quills :)
Anyway that's not what the term "whole real foods" implies. It means
macroscopic parts of animals or vegetables, as opposed to extracting particular
chemical constitutent from them. My view of optimal nutrition and diet at
our present level of understanding is that such whole foods are the basice
things which should be ingested, and chemical extracts from them (or
syntheticly produced) ie. vitamin/mineral/nutrient supplements, come next.
>>>I was trying to express my concern
>>>that I need to count things IN real foods
>>>and not counting real foods entirely.
>
>>But there is a lot more important and necessary things in the real
>>foods that were on your list.
>Then I am ignorant.
As I said before, if it makes you feel any better, we are all ignorant.
Actually, it should make you feel worse.
>>>That suggests the way I decide what to eat and act:
>>>I want to relax for a few hours so I eat an apple for the sugar.
>
>>But what you *get* (and a good thing too) is a lot more than just
>>the sugar.
>I have an elementary education.
The moment one stops learning is the moment when one dies.
>>>I will prepare to lose a few points of intelligence
>>>so I will not study foreign languages.
>
>>You may or may not there are host of other variables involved.
>Vitamin C boosts IQ but my brain will be much slower from the sugar,
>it would be less than the best situation for memorization.
Please explain why you keep saying that sugar reduces your intelligence.
Blood sugar is necessary for your neurons to work and your brain to think.
Also do you have any evidence that vitamin C boost IQ.
Finally, IQ is a poor measure of brain intelligence and capability. There
are many other important capabilities and even "intelligences".
>>>The fiber means I may have a bowel movement in a few hours
>>>so I will not spend the evening at my friends house.
>
>>Not very likely from one apple.
>Food in the stomach leads to increased pressure on the intestines
>and the blood.
>The fecal material may combined with previously digested material
>and become the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.
>I did use too long a time span.
This all depends on when you had your last bowel movement. Let us just
say the I find the "may" in your original statement to be a very *weak* may.
>>>The vitamin and mineral content means
>>>I will not take my supliments for a while.
>
>>There are lots of important minerals and vitamins not in any apple.
>
>>>If I'm water-fasting I will not eat the juicy apple.
>
>>Apples do not have a particularly high water content, only 84%.
>>Most fruits and a great many vegetables have more.
>>You need all the water you get with an apple just to digest and
>>eliminate its nutrients properly.
>That's interesting.
>Too bad we can't talk about that instead of my ignorance.
Yes, the water contents of various foods, their nutrient "density", their
nutrient value per calorie, and even their nutrient value per dollar is
something I would welcome discussion about.
So if you will promise to explain yourself at little better so that poor,
stupid insensitive me doesn't get led astray, then I will be happy to
talk about these and other interesting things with you.
>>>One apple leads to all these benifits and restrictions.
>>
>>Not quite so automated and simplistic as you imply.
>(I don't know a darn thing about biophysics.)
What does biophysics have to do with it?
>>>I decide what I will eat based on what I had the hour before
>>>and what I have not had over the course of the day.
>
>>I think that most of us do the same, or we plan ahead to that meals
>>are coordinated that way. Bear in mind that you don't need to balance
>>some things over the course of one day. For many things, the course
>>of a week is sufficient. Others should be taken in more often than
>>daily.
>(I don't need to take care of my body optimally, only sufficiently.)
"Optimally" means having less disease, having more brain power, and
living longer than "sufficiently".
>>This is my last reply since this is cluttering the list with banter
>>instead of science.
>(I banter.)
Me too, but not anymore - I really, really mean it, this time.
>>-- Brian --
Horrors!!
>He he he...just joking. :-)
Naughty, naugthy. You'll catch it from Ben.
>I don't expect a reply.
How wrong can you be?
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Nov 7 03:34:43 1997
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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:33:38 +0000
To: cran@ListService.net
From: Ian Eiloart
Subject: Re: CRSOCIETY and CRAN lists -- what's the difference?
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The difference between CRSOCIETY and CRAN?
As far as I can see the traffic is less, but the signal to noise ratio is
about the same. Any chance we can all just stop bitching about people on
other lists, and just talk about food, please?
Please, not that I'm not calling anybody a bitch here, but I really would
appreciate it if I didn't have to wade through endless analysis of what
people might or might not have meant by this or that posting weeks or
months ago.
I just want to know about nutrition.
--
cheers, Ian
http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/iane
http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/iane/coops
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Nov 7 14:54:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:50:23 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Apologies to the List
To: cranlist
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Please accept my apologies for sending replies to the list for
messages which didn't themselves go to the list.
1) Mike Coward and I began a dialogue on the CRAN list.
2) However, his last two messages while having the exact same
thread title went only to me. I did not notice this change.
3) Because I have very poor mail software with Compuserve which
in reply mode will not let me intersperse comments with the text I am
replying to, I use "forward" mode when I wish to do that (laboriously
having to put in my own ">"s) . This means also that I have to fill in my
own "to" address.
4) I was lead astray and sent my two last replies to the list instead of
to him.
5) Now he has begun a new thread replying to some of my comments
which went to the CRAN list, with his new thread going to the CRSociety,
Extropians and transhumans lists.
6) The points of his thread are now more science oriented and would
be interesting to address. But by now I am very tired of going
astray by trying to follow his purpose, his logic, and his email
meanderings.
Again my apologies for wasting people's precious time. I will just
quietly disappear for a while.
-- Paul --
.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 8 01:02:49 1997
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:02:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: A proposal for subscriber-controlled CRAN-list membership
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I have been giving some thought as to how to reduce the noise and
hostility on the CRAN list. I do NOT want to monitor every message before
it is posted. Nor am I comfortable with taking full responsibility for
kicking someone off the list.
I therefore propose the following policy:
If, within the space of a week, I receive 5 votes from CRAN
subscribers that some other CRAN subscriber should be removed from the
CRAN list I will publish a notice to the list that the named offending
subscriber has been nominated for removal. If, within the space of
the following week, I receive 10 votes from CRAN subscribers to removed
the nominated subscriber from the list I will remove that subscriber and
announce that fact to everyone. All votes become invalid one week
following their posting. Votes should be sent directly to me. Any
votes posted to the CRAN list itself will be invalid.
If there is no discussion of this proposal, I will implement it
beginning November 15th. I am open to suggestions for modification. Note
that this policy is not "majority rule", it is sensitive to a minority
with strong feelings about the hostility or boringness of some subscriber.
Since this is an experiment, I will be autocratic about implementing it.
If I decide that it is too much of an administrative hassle or I don't
like the way it is working I will discontinue it.
Suggestions?
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 8 06:47:24 1997
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 08:31:04 -0500
To: "; ; ;"
From: Mike Coward
Subject: List Administration Request: Fight Flamers and Offenders
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I have seen many flame wars an many lists
and now it's time for the madness to end. >:-(
Administrators often feel quite helpess
as they do not want people to think they are denying people
the right to communicate.
Well enough is enough.
This is what I suggest YOU do:
1- Read.
2- Send this to all your favorite lists.
3- Talk to list administrators about it.
4- Make FRIENDS, not enemies;
remember, even your enemies would prefer to be friends.
I request sending of CONCEALED votes for removal of offenders
to be sent to list administrators(*1)
who will send STANDARD warnings to offenders(*2)
REQUIRING immediate AND STANDARD appologies AND FORGIVINGS to lists(*3)
in posts with standard subject heading prefixes(*4)
if offenders don't appologize and forgive or continue offending(*6)
they should be removed for a standard period of time.(*7)
(*1)
1- Public posts leads to persecution of already frustrated voters.
2- Votes should be sent WHENEVER offended people feel it is necessary
to remove a poster.
(*2)
1- Standard posts eliminating bias should be sent
IMMEDIATLY upon receiving a required number of votes
to prevent further avoidable offences.
2- The number of votes required will vary
as does the size of lists
and the active number of "fire fighters" or "baby sitters".
3- A good warning is:
"Please appoligize and forgive.
Refusal to due so immediately
will result in your removal from this list."
It's nice and simple.
It makes no accusations.
It's short and saves time and bandwidth.
(*3)
1- People should be kind enough to accept appologies and forgivings
with only a simple expression of their wish for peace.
A good phrase is: "I appologize and forgive.";
it's short,
easy for people with big egos to say,
does not offend like defensive or explainatory remarks VERY often do,
and saves time and bandwidth.
2- [see (*5)]
(*4)
1- Identify posts as personal and list individual parties involved
(ie. Subject: Re: Personal: John, Robert, James).
This warns people
who do not have time to waste
reading other peoples immature garbage
that should not have begun in the first place.
(*5)
1- Long defensive/offensive remarks
VERY often only compel people to reply,
thereby prologing suffering and enraging people further.
If you remain on good terms with people
they will get to know you better
and the truth will prevail eventually;
so only deceivers NEED to argue. :-)
(*6)
1- People CAN change.
Give them a chance to cool down
and return as a productive member of the group.
2- The more offenses a person has commited the longer it should be.
Here's what I suggest:
1st and 2nd offense = warning
3rd and 4th offence = 1 week
5th and 6th offense = 1 month
7th = indefinitely (make them grovel to administration)
8th + = Get a lawyer and sue this jerk for harrasment! :-)
3-Give a week after a vote count because some people may be slow to post
and you would not want a lynch mob to get someone sued
because of one offense which receives complaints for weeks.
Do you think it will work?
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 8 15:20:13 1997
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:17:42 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
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Ben wrote:
> I have been giving some thought as to how to reduce the noise and
>hostility on the CRAN list.
Ben, if you are refering to the dialogue between Mike Coward and I then
you are completely mistaken. There was "noise" and I apologize for that,
but there was no hostility at all, we were just having fun.
-- Paul --
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From: "Doug Younkin"
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:54:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: Deprenyl (Selegiline): max lifespan vs squaring the curve
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:05:31 -0500 (EST) Ben Best wrote:
> From: Ben Best
> To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
> Cc: Ben Best
> Subject: Deprenyl (Selegiline)
....
> This study found *NO* extension of maximum lifespan of Male F344
> rats with selegiline. One of the names on the paper is Gwen Ivy, who had
> been a participant in an earlier study that found a small (2.3%) extension
> of maximum lifespan with selegiline [LIFE SCIENCES 47:415-420 (1990)]. The
> paper also had a summary of previous lifespan studies showing that all the
> studies done by Joseph Knoll (who co-discovered selegiline in 1965) -- and
> ONLY those by Knoll -- showed a lifespan increase in excess of 10%.
>
> But selegiline *did* extend MEAN lifespan ("squaring the curve") and
> showed improvement in spatial learning abilities of nearly one-third for
> the "elderly" rats.
>
> These benefits underscore what I see to be the philosophical
> difference between my viewpoint and that of the CRSOCIETY (Brian Delaney).
> For one thing, I place a high value on "squaring the curve". If I can
> increase my probability of living to 120 years, then I have increased my
> chances of benefitting from new life-extension technologies that are
> bound to emerge in the years ahead. In fact, from the point of view of
> "buying time" in an era of rapidly-changing biotechnology, extending
> mean lifespan may be of nearly indistinguishable benefit from extending
> maximum lifespan.
Ben,
I also agree that "squaring the curve" is more important than
increasing maximum lifespan for me. First, "squaring the curve"
means that not only has median lifespan increased, but standard
deviation has decreased. Since I am an individual, I don't know what
member of the population of "lifetimes" I am, so if I can be a member
of a set of lifetimes that has a narrow standard deviation and
higher median lifespan, I will be more certain of my longer lifetime
than if I were a member of a population displaying a wider standard
deviation of lifespans yet higher maximum lifespan. I think people
are often confused and try to apply population attributes to
individuals (themselves).
>From strictly a statistical basis, a normal distribution (which is
probably how lifetimes are distributed, or maybe lognormal or
Weibull) is completely described by a median lifetime and a standard
deviation (mu and sigma, or alpha and beta for a Weibull). There is
no such concept of a "maximum value" distribution parameter. Of
course there will be some maximum because the sample sizes are
finite and someone will have the longest lifetime in each experiment.
I really don't know who began the concept of "maximum lifespan" as
being a relevant parameter, but as far as I know, it is poor or
improper statistics to emphasize that rather than median or standard
deviation.
Increasing "maximum lifespan" without "squaring the
curve" simply means that the median lifespan has increased but the
standard deviation has not changed. In other words, there are still
early deaths but all tend to live somewhat longer. "Squaring the
curve" without increasing "maximum lifespan" simply means that median
lifespan has increased and standard deviation has decreased. In
other words, there are much fewer early deaths, all tend to live to
the same age, and all tend to live somewhat longer.
What I would really like to see is a better analysis of the data.
I have not seen tabulated the lifespan data of the CRAN or
antioxidant studies, otherwise I would have done a more thorough
statistical analysis of that data. About a year ago I posted on
CRSOCIETY that I would do such an analysis if someone would point me
in the right direction to the raw life data, but no one responded. I
am still willing to do that kind of analysis. Can anyone supply
tabulated life data for a few of the aging studies? I am really
serious about this and believe that better analyses are needed than
have been published.
Doug Younkin
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 8 16:07:29 1997
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:06:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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Subject: Excellent Free Radical Review
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For an excellent short review of the role of free radicals in
biological systems I recommend
"Oxygen Radicals in Cell Injury and Cell Death" by J.Warren, K. Johnson
and P. Ward PATHOLOGY AND IMMUNOPATHOLOGY RESEARCH 6:301-315 (1987)
There are good texts describing the subject, but this is short paper
that manages to put a lot of information in a few pages. It is, however,
10 years old. Anyone know of a more recent review? (That is concise and
comprehensive -- as this one is.)
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 8 17:01:23 1997
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:00:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Protein and Kidney Damage
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Paul Wakfer recently made reference to protein damaging the kidney. I
must admit that I have tended to be skeptical about this because (1) I
haven't seen mention of the subject in textbooks or scientific papers and
(2) experiments done with CRAN animals showed that all of the benefits
attributed to reduced protein were only due to reduced calories.
However, I dug through some of my unread papers in my protein paper
collection and came-across an article that appeared on the Sept 9, 1992
issue of THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE [ 307:652-659 (1982)].
When renal patients "with serum creatinine concentrations averaging
2.2 mg per decilitre (190 micromole per liter) were maintained on a diet
containing 30 to 40 gm of protein per day and were phospate-restricted,
no significant fall in glomerular filtration rate was observed over two
years, whereas continued deterioration of renal function characterizes
comparable patients whose intake of protein and phosphorus is not
restricted."
The paper estimates that the average protein intake in the Western
diet is about 100 grams per day. The authors suggest that "augmented
intrarenal pressures and flows associated with ad libitum feeding
contributes to the age-associated glomerular sclerosis repeatedly observed
in laboratory animals and in human beings."
Changing the diet of dogs from carbohydrate to meat was shown to
"increase renal blood flow and glomerular filtration rate by as much
as 100 per cent." Moreover, "the average filtration rate was about
70 per cent higher in rats maintained on 35 per cent protein chow than
in rats fed a diet containing only 6 per cent protein."
One extremely interesting comment made in this paper was "Development
of renal lesions in both sexes [of mice and hamsters] can be delayed by
making food available on alternate days". To me, it suggests that the
difference in mean lifespan between every-other-day feeding and 50% "diet
restriction" could be due to kidney function. A paper by Ingram & Reynolds
in EVOLUTION OF LONGEVITY IN ANIMALS ( Woodhead & Thompson, Editors, 1987)
reported 56% increase in MEAN lifespan for CRAN mice fed every-other-day
as opposed to a 36% increase in MEAN lifespan for CRAN mice fed 50% normal
calories. Quite possibly protected renal function was accounting for over
half of the benefit attributed to CRAN. (Dr. Walford fed his animals ad
libitum on alternate days to acheive CRAN).
But why did CRAN experiments not show particular advantage for
protein restriction? Perhaps the benefits (or hazards) of protein
restriction are non-linear. That is, there may be a threshold value
of kidney burden beyond which there is damage, but before which there
is NO damage. The experiment cited above demonstrating renal patients
on 30-40 grams of protein per day showing "no significant fall in
glomerular filtration rate" over 2 years seems to support this
explanation. If protein caused damage in a linear fashion, then at
least SOME damage would be expected -- directly proportional to the
amount of protein.
The question then would be, WHERE IS THE THRESHOLD?
With complete protein (egg white or whey) 30-40 grams of protein
per day is probably more than adequate for a person practicing CRAN.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 8 17:13:44 1997
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:12:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Web page
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On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Robert Cumming wrote:
> I don't know how this will work, but it is definitely worth trying now,
> when the group is still small. It is reminiscent of the Greek ostracism and
> may be subject to the same problems.
What is "Greek ostracism"? And what are the problems?
> What will you do, however, if somebody posts both interesting messages and
> provocative messages?
The proposal is for a policy that it is only concerned with how many
negative votes are cast. Presumably, a person who posts interesting
messages along with hostile ones would be less likely to elicit negative
votes. This policy would also provide grounds for excluding people who
post boring, time-wasting messages, as well as hostile ones. However,
I don't expect to see it being used on anyone in the near future.
> By the way, your web page is quite interesting. Since you want criticism of
> it, all I can say is that there are spelling mistakes, and the artwork
> could be improved. What articles I did read were delightful.
The art is minimal, and is a reflection of my fledgling attempts to
learn Corel Draw. If you would send me private e-mail of my spelling
mistakes, it would be appreciated.
> ==============================================================
> Martha Olijnyk, University of Waterloo denizen
> Physics Fan, Owner of Invisible Schroedinger's Cat =\"/=
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 8 23:04:19 1997
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To:
From: Mike Coward
Subject: Personal: Paul and Offended (subscriber-controlled CRAN-list
membership)
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I appologize and forgive.
At 05:17 PM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Ben wrote:
>
>> I have been giving some thought as to how to reduce the noise and
>>hostility on the CRAN list.
>
>Ben, if you are refering to the dialogue between Mike Coward and I then
>you are completely mistaken. There was "noise" and I apologize for that,
>but there was no hostility at all, we were just having fun.
>
>-- Paul --
>
All these apologies we are making are becoming too noisy!
I starting reading this post
thinking it was contained information I did not know.
...shh. :-)
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 8 23:53:15 1997
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 01:55:19 -0500
To: CRAN@ListService.net
From: Mike Coward
Subject: Re: max lifespan vs squaring the curve (Deprenyl (Selegiline))
In-Reply-To: <199711082253.QAA23488@www.cedarnet.org>
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>What I would really like to see is a better analysis of the data.
>I have not seen tabulated the lifespan data of the CRAN or
>antioxidant studies, otherwise I would have done a more thorough
>statistical analysis of that data. About a year ago I posted on
>CRSOCIETY that I would do such an analysis if someone would point me
>in the right direction to the raw life data, but no one responded. I
>am still willing to do that kind of analysis. Can anyone supply
>tabulated life data for a few of the aging studies? I am really
>serious about this and believe that better analyses are needed than
>have been published.
>
>Doug Younkin
I will try to help.
The only thing I can think of doing
is finding out what studies you are refering to
and writing to scientists conducting the studies.
This will probably take a while
but now that you have explained
max lifespan does not mean squaring the curve
I am a bit frustrated and feel this problem MUST be resolved
to obtain full benifit from any regimen.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 9 14:37:44 1997
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From: "Phil Harris"
To: "Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver"
Subject: Re: Protein and Kidney Damage
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:44:37 -0000
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Ben made some interesting points on protein intake and kidneys. When our
old dog was diagnosed with impaired kidney function he was prescribed a
low(er) protein dog meal which was specially marketed for just this
purpose. This apparently prolonged his life as well as making it bearable
by getting rid of symptoms. Apparently well characterised in the veterinary
world. More often seems to be known about animal nutrition than human. A
friend recently suggested we try the local vet rather than the doctor.
best wishes
phil harris
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 9 15:18:35 1997
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Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:18:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Deprenyl (Selegiline): max lifespan vs squaring the curve
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On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Doug Younkin wrote:
> I also agree that "squaring the curve" is more important than
> increasing maximum lifespan for me. First, "squaring the curve"
> means that not only has median lifespan increased, but standard
> deviation has decreased. Since I am an individual, I don't know what
> member of the population of "lifetimes" I am, so if I can be a member
> of a set of lifetimes that has a narrow standard deviation and
> higher median lifespan, I will be more certain of my longer lifetime
> than if I were a member of a population displaying a wider standard
> deviation of lifespans yet higher maximum lifespan.
I don't really think of it as an either/or choice between MEAN and
MAXIMUM lifespan. CRAN seems to move the whole right side of the curve,
with both MEAN and MAXIMUM lifespan moving right. I'm certainly in favor
of this. In stressing the value of MEAN lifespan, I am mainly arguing
against people who discount its value. This includes people like Hayflick
who has no interest in extending his life, but is only interested in
an academic/intellectual understanding of the mechanisms of aging.
Unfortunately, there are many self-styled life-extensionists who place
a disproportionate emphasis on MAXIMUM lifespan, being somewhat dismissive
of agents/regimens/diets which can increase MEAN lifespan.
> >From strictly a statistical basis, a normal distribution (which is
> probably how lifetimes are distributed, or maybe lognormal or
> Weibull) is completely described by a median lifetime and a standard
> deviation (mu and sigma, or alpha and beta for a Weibull). There is
> no such concept of a "maximum value" distribution parameter. Of
> course there will be some maximum because the sample sizes are
> finite and someone will have the longest lifetime in each experiment.
> I really don't know who began the concept of "maximum lifespan" as
> being a relevant parameter, but as far as I know, it is poor or
> improper statistics to emphasize that rather than median or standard
> deviation.
My statistics is rusty, but common sense tells me that if I want
to live as long as possible, increasing both MEAN and MAXIMUM lifespan
is important. Ultimately MAXIMUM lifespan MUST be increased if I want
to live indefinitely. Common sense also tells me that lengthening
MAXIMUM and MEAN lifespan is likely to increase the standard deviation
of each, but this doesn't reduce the value of either lengthening.
> Increasing "maximum lifespan" without "squaring the
> curve" simply means that the median lifespan has increased but the
> standard deviation has not changed.
As I said, I expect the standard deviation would increase. But
whether it does or not, the chances of a longer life are increased
even if the MEAN lifespan does not change. As with CRAN, however,
increasing MAXIMUM lifespan may shift MEAN lifespan to the right.
This is an improvement even without squaring the curve.
> What I would really like to see is a better analysis of the data.
> I have not seen tabulated the lifespan data of the CRAN or
> antioxidant studies, otherwise I would have done a more thorough
> statistical analysis of that data. About a year ago I posted on
> CRSOCIETY that I would do such an analysis if someone would point me
> in the right direction to the raw life data, but no one responded. I
> am still willing to do that kind of analysis. Can anyone supply
> tabulated life data for a few of the aging studies? I am really
> serious about this and believe that better analyses are needed than
> have been published.
Posting on a list like this is probably not the best strategy for
getting data. I think you would be far better to find some journal
articles summarizing the kinds of studies that are of most interest
to you and then writing the authors requesting data (preferably in
computer-readable form). You might have to offer some form of payment.
However, I will forward your posting to Brian Rowley, who might
be able to help.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 9 21:05:32 1997
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 23:07:30 -0500
To: CRAN@ListService.net
From: Mike Coward
Subject: Re: Protein, Kidney Damage, and Vets
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At 08:44 PM 11/9/97 -0000, you wrote:
> When our old dog was diagnosed with impaired kidney function he was
prescribed a
>low(er) protein dog meal which was specially marketed for just this
>purpose. This apparently prolonged his life as well as making it bearable
>by getting rid of symptoms.
1- What are the symptoms of kidney disfunction in order of severity?
I would especially like to know the least severe.
>Apparently well characterised in the veterinary
>world. More often seems to be known about animal nutrition than human. A
>friend recently suggested we try the local vet rather than the doctor.
I agree.
Vets have had more experience with a variety of animals
which bring up only very few ethical concerns of disection.
Humans are shy about their bodies
and do not want doctors chopping up grandma.
Aslo, vets take care of farm animals which must be healthy
enough to bring in the cash and feed humans.
Farmers themselves have brought much knowledge to light too.
Would you rather see a doctor that understands drugs for one animal
or drugs and surgery for dozens of animals?
>best wishes
>phil harris
>
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 11 06:01:57 1997
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:01:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Protein and Kidney Damage
In-Reply-To:
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On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Ben Best wrote:
> One extremely interesting comment made in this paper was "Development
> of renal lesions in both sexes [of mice and hamsters] can be delayed by
> making food available on alternate days". To me, it suggests that the
> difference in mean lifespan between every-other-day feeding and 50% "diet
> restriction" could be due to kidney function. A paper by Ingram & Reynolds
> in EVOLUTION OF LONGEVITY IN ANIMALS ( Woodhead & Thompson, Editors, 1987)
> reported 56% increase in MEAN lifespan for CRAN mice fed every-other-day
> as opposed to a 36% increase in MEAN lifespan for CRAN mice fed 50% normal
> calories. Quite possibly protected renal function was accounting for over
> half of the benefit attributed to CRAN. (Dr. Walford fed his animals ad
> libitum on alternate days to acheive CRAN).
I am "replying" to my own message because I have had further thoughts
and done further research on the subject of kidney disease, protein and
CRAN.
I have scoured Chapter 3 of Walford & Weindruch's THE RETARDATION OF
AGING AND DISEASE BY DIETARY RESTRICTION (1988) for some evidence that
CRAN animals may have died of kidney disease less often than control
animals. What I would like to see is a table showing cause of death of
CRAN animals as opposed to control animals. I can't find such a table.
Instead there is an extensive discussion of how neoplasms are delayed by
CRAN, and the alterations in types of neoplasms that cause death. There
is much discussion of the INCIDENCE of diseases, without mentioning cause
of death or relative effects of CRAN. Table 3.1 indicates that fully
99% of Fischer rats experience glomerulosclerosis, in contrast to 5% of
Lewis rats. Figure 3.2 indicates that nephrosis is the most common
non-neoplastic disease in male Sprague-Dawley rats. Mention is made
on page 83 that "Besides nephropathy, neoplasias and cardiomyopathy emerge
as the main late-life diseases" and that CRAN retards their development.
The study by the Toronto group showing a 16% lifespan increase for
elderly male Fischer rats [LIFE SCIENCES 47:415-420 (1990)] has the kind
of table I am looking for -- table 2 on page 417:
Probable causes of Death
Multiple
Group Factors Tumor Renal Liver Other
Control 35 15 16 1 0
Deprenyl 31 15 11 6 3
Expressed as percentages:
Multiple
Group Factors Tumor Renal Liver Other
Control 52% 22% 24% 1.5% 0 %
Deprenyl 47% 23% 17% 9 % 5%
The authors commented that controls had significantly
higher levels of blood urea nitrogen (BUN) than the deprenyl
animals, indicating that deprenyl may have had a protective
effect on the kidney. Looking at the chart it appears that
there may be a countervailing influence on the liver.
This still doesn't directly answer my questions about how
much CRAN or the protein component of CRAN might contribute
to increase lifespan through a reduction in kidney malfunction.
But it does indicate that kidney disease is a frequent cause of
death in rodents -- much more frequent than in humans.
> With complete protein (egg white or whey) 30-40 grams of protein
> per day is probably more than adequate for a person practicing CRAN.
I should caution that persons in a weight-loss mode, or who are
exercizing should be careful to insure adequate protein -- probably at
levels a bit higher than at "steady-state" weight. Muscle-wasting is
a serious concern -- and a deadly concern with respect to heart muscle.
Muscle is particularly rich in branch-chained amino-acids and whey
protein is a particularly good source of these. That's why weight-lifters
and other athletes intent on building muscle take whey. I have looked at
the whey products on the market and in my opinion the best is THE ULTIMATE
WHEY DESIGNER PROTEIN, natural flavor. This is lactose-reduced and
sweetened with aspartame. I am now taking one scoop every morning, which
supplies 18.5 grams of very high quality protein. One source of this is
the LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION, 1-800-841-5433 or www.lef.org
I am cutting-down on my consumption of egg whites. I don't drink milk
anymore so my other high-protein foods are cheese and tofu. I like cheese
because it is low in lactose and high in calcium. I am weighing my foods
again now, so I will try to estimate my protein consumption with an eye
to levels which are adequate, but not excessive.
As a teenager I stopped eating sweets. Later, I learned to cut-out
fats. Recently I have been struggling against complex carbohydrates
(cereal, then bread). I like protein as a source of calories because it
does not make me as sleepy as carbohydrates. I am running out of foods!
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 11 08:23:25 1997
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From: "Phil Harris"
To: "Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver"
Subject: Fw: Protein, Kidney Damage, and Vets
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:19:57 -0000
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I sent this a day ago but it did not get through for some reason; nothing
to do with the List server. Please excuse the forwarding marks.
Phil H
----------
> From: Phil Harris
> To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
> Subject: Re: Protein, Kidney Damage, and Vets
> Date: 10 November 1997 10:47
>
> > >low(er) protein dog meal which was specially marketed for just this
> > >purpose. This apparently prolonged his life as well as making it
> bearable
> > >by getting rid of symptoms.
Mike Coward wrote and asked
> > 1- What are the symptoms of kidney disfunction in order of severity?
> > I would especially like to know the least severe.
>
> I am not qualified to answer this. I am no doctor or vet. We confused the
> symptoms in the dog with old age which had been accompanied by arthritis,
> so were alerted, if that is the right word, rather late on by muscle
> wastage, weakness, and *discomfort*. Muscle loss stabilised; maybe he put
a
> little back on, and he was much more comfortable. In the end though he
had
> to go to avoid a kidney death. His diagnosis was confirmed by protein in
> the urine if I remember and that was considerably helped by the low
protein
> diet. It was easy to monitor. The same protein test applies to humans.
> However, I remember a case where the urine protein was the first the
person
> knew of the problem. At the other end of the scale I also knew somebody
> briefly on dialysis. General awful discomfort seemed to figure
importantly
> as the unexcreted waste built up. My guess is that there are several
> different kinds as well as levels of impairment. Low protein diet may not
> protect a healthy kidney from anything of course although there seem to
be
> connections with lower calcium excetion and according to
Campbell/Cornell,
> less age related osteoporosis and (especially with lower animal protein)
> less cancer. Doug Skrecky had a reference for casein and diabetes, in
rats
> I think.
> There are areas of case history in diabetes management, sports medicine
> (some interesting postings on crsociety recently) as well as veterinary
> science, which I guess will have relevance to understanding as well as
> helping good and *do-able* CR. The links might include the changes in
whole
> profiles of physiological markers including hormones which are predictive
> in disease prevention (alias diseases of premature aging?). We need a new
> branch of medicine perhaps. [Health Warning:- the suites of enzymes
related
> to metabolism differ considerably between species (and probably there
could
> be significant differences between individuals) and we should be careful
> not to make uninformed generalisations.]
> best wishes
> phil harris
>
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 11 20:45:27 1997
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:43:10 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Protein and Kidney Damage
To: cranlist
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On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:01:04 -0500 (EST), Ben Best wrote,
>I have looked at
>the whey products on the market and in my opinion the best is THE ULTIMATE
>WHEY DESIGNER PROTEIN, natural flavor. This is lactose-reduced and
>sweetened with aspartame. I am now taking one scoop every morning, which
>supplies 18.5 grams of very high quality protein. One source of this is
>the LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION, 1-800-841-5433 or www.lef.org
Ben, I use the natural and vanilla flavors all the time.
Neither the natural or vanilla flavors contain aspartame or any other
sweeteners according to the labels on my bottles.
> I am cutting-down on my consumption of egg whites. I don't drink milk
>anymore so my other high-protein foods are cheese and tofu.
As well, I like low fat cottage cheese and I also use a fair amount of
soy protein powder which I get from the Life Extension Foundation.
> As a teenager I stopped eating sweets. Later, I learned to cut-out
>fats. Recently I have been struggling against complex carbohydrates
>(cereal, then bread). I like protein as a source of calories because it
>does not make me as sleepy as carbohydrates. I am running out of foods!
I too have cut complex carbohydrates way back recently, this came naturally
when I got a full set of braces on my teeth, thereby losing the ability to
chew efficiently for some time. The result is that I am now eating a lot
of "blender" meals.
For breakfast I blend several fruits even including pitted prunes,
and add whey and soy powder for protein.
For lunch I have a very large blended salad with tofu or cottage cheese
or tuna or sardines or nuts blended in.
For dinner I have cooked vegetables blended together with pasta sauce
with fish or cheese or eggs. I either blend in or drink separately all
the water that I cook my vegetables in.
Starchy grains do not blend well and I haven't used white potatos or rice
for at least 10 years because of their high glycemic index.
I believe this blender method of preparing and chewing saves overall time
with meals, makes it easier to cut my calories, makes it easier to reduce
fat intake, and the slurry makes it very easy to swallow all the supplement
pills that I take.
I like the blended flavors. I have always been one to like to put a bit of
each food on my plate into my mouth at the same time. In addition, by
varying the combination of foods blended together you can create some very
interesting and delightful flavors. Finally, this method has allowed me to
eat the foods more "whole" instead of throwing away unpalatable parts which
are none-the-less quite nutritious. For example, I now blend up the seeds
center pulp from a cantalope, the same for squash, the seeds from red and
green peppers, the bones in the fish, much more of the white of citrus fruits
(which contains the bioflavinoids), etc. (I have tried blending hard boiled
eggs shells and all yet, maybe I will.)
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Nov 12 00:26:34 1997
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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:25:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Protein and Kidney Damage
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On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Paul Wakfer wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:01:04 -0500 (EST), Ben Best wrote,
>
> >I have looked at
> >the whey products on the market and in my opinion the best is THE ULTIMATE
> >WHEY DESIGNER PROTEIN, natural flavor. This is lactose-reduced and
> >sweetened with aspartame. I am now taking one scoop every morning, which
> >supplies 18.5 grams of very high quality protein. One source of this is
> >the LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION, 1-800-841-5433 or www.lef.org
>
> Ben, I use the natural and vanilla flavors all the time.
> Neither the natural or vanilla flavors contain aspartame or any other
> sweeteners according to the labels on my bottles.
I was wrong about the aspartame -- I should have checked the bottle
rather than my memory. The natural flavor states that "This product
contains no added L-tryptophan, sucrose or fructose. No artificial flavors
or sweeteners." That may be one reason I preferred the natural over the
vanilla, since the latter is sweetened with "acesulfame-potassium",
whatever that is. I do know, however, that I compared the ingredient lists
and made my choice on that basis:
Ingredient Vanilla Natural
Energy 80 cal 85 cal
Protein 16 gm 18.5 gm
Fat 1 gm <1 gm
Carbohydrate 2 gm 1.5 gm
The extra calories in the natural is more than accounted-for
by the extra protein.
This may sound nit-picky, but when I am choosing something I plan
to eat every day, I see no reason not to settle for the best.
> > As a teenager I stopped eating sweets. Later, I learned to cut-out
> >fats. Recently I have been struggling against complex carbohydrates
> >(cereal, then bread). I like protein as a source of calories because it
> >does not make me as sleepy as carbohydrates. I am running out of foods!
I have deleted your long answer. This was my idea of a joke. I am
no-where near running out of foods -- there are still far too many
keeping my little (?) mouth far too busy far too often.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 15 07:37:00 1997
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Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:36:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: New policy for the CRAN list
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NEW QUALITY-CONTROL POLICY FOR THE C.R.A.N. LIST
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and
they thought it was hell."
-- Harry S. Truman
I previously suggested a new policy intended to ensure that
hostility and vacuous messages are kept to a minimum on the CRAN
list. There have been a few favorable comments in response to this
suggestion -- both publically posted and in private e-mail to me.
There has not been anything like "discussion" and no one has expressed
opposition to the idea. So, as I suggested, this new policy is being
incorporated into the general policies of the CRAN list (until further
notice or modification).
The policy is as follows:
If, within the space of a week, I receive 3 votes from CRAN
subscribers that some other CRAN subscriber should be removed from the
CRAN list I will publish a notice to the list that the named offending
subscriber has been nominated for removal. If, within the space of the
following week, I receive 10 votes from CRAN subscribers to remove the
nominated subscriber from the list I will remove that subscriber and
announce that fact to everyone. All votes become invalid one week following
their posting. Votes should be sent directly to me (benbest@benbest.com).
Any votes posted to the CRAN list itself will be invalid.
Note that this policy is not "majority rule", it is sensitive to a
minority with strong feelings against the hostility or boringness of some
subscriber. Since this is an experiment, I will be autocratic about
implementing it. If I decide that it is too much of an administrative hassle
or I don't like the way it is working I will modify or discontinue it.
My hope is that the mere existence of the policy will give people
pause for thought before posting something that might be nasty or a waste
of bandwidth. With luck, it will never be implemented. The policy is not
intended to restrain criticism, but I would hope criticism would be
directed at concepts or information rather than at personalities. Also,
as Harry Truman should have noted, sometimes the *way* you "tell the truth"
can make a big difference in how your message is conveyed.
FINAL NOTE: If people vote to remove me from this list, it could
create some logistics problems.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Nov 20 15:12:32 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:11:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Air restriction, e-mail restriction, etc.
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Things have been pretty quiet on the CRAN list it seems. I am only
guessing this because I have been having serious ISP problems and
not getting e-mail -- my messages have been being bounced.
Anyway, I am hoping that I haven't overly scared people from posting
as a result of my policy concerning allowing people to be "voted-out"
due to excessively vacuous, hostile or unscientific postings. I had
been seeing complaints about excessive garbage on the CRSOCIETY list,
low signal-to-noise ratio -- plus my own experience with a hostile,
insulting exchange, so I wanted to add some distinctiveness (and
perhaps "class") to the CRAN list.
But this doesn't mean that only peer-reviewed scientific
investigations are allowed. I want this to be a place where
people share their experiences with attempts to implement
CRAN or whatever regimen they are using to extend their
lifespan.
These needn't be success stories. Yesterday, after many weeks
of holding to my CRAN regimen very nicely, I went on a binge.
This was triggered by an enormous amount of frustration I was
having. I had a craving for some carbohydrates (which I am now
consuming less of since I have primarily rationed myself to my
homemade bread) so I bought a box of SHREDDED WHEAT 'N BRAN.
Carbohydrates, even complex ones, tend to stimulate appetite
-- I ended-up eating most of the box. Then I bought 4 bananas
and at all of them. A whole day's worth of calories in a
couple of hours.
However, I simply let myself enjoy the experience and have
not "beat-up on myself" very much. I don't want to be too easy
on myself -- I would lose all discipline. But it felt good to
binge, and I am trusting myself that I can enjoy it without
it de-railing my program. Whenever I binge, I usually am able
to eat very little on the following day and thereby make-up
the difference. Today I have had less than 200 calories and
will probably be able to finish the day will very little hunger
and few additional calories.
Opinions are also welcome, but I am not impressed by some
of the stuff I am now seeing on CRSOCIETY. The stuff about
aspartame has no scientific references and strikes me as
anti-techologic nonsense. I understand that a recent study
published in the JOURNAL OF THE NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE
(July 16, 1997) provides proof that aspartame does not
cause brain cancer in children or cause cancer to a
foetus when aspartame is consumed during pregnancy. I'll
look this up next time I get to the library and write
a review.
The speculation about water-restriction is also unsubstantiated.
I don't even think it is very persuasive. There might be evolutionary
reasons why humans would be better able to survive if they could fly,
but the fact is -- we do not fly. Nor are we well adapted to
air-restriction -- and there is certainly no evidence that
we could extend our lifespan by resticting our air.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Nov 20 15:29:34 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:27:27 -0500
From: Daniell Stevens
To: benbest@benbest.com, CRAN@ListService.net
Subject: Air restriction, e-mail restriction, etc. -Reply
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I agree that it is unlikely that water restriction affects the aging process
in as fundamental a way as CRAN.
The most persuasive arguments for CRAN affecting a fundamental aging
process is the fact that it extends maximum lifespan in species from
several different animal phyla, including fishes. There is a large body of
scientific and unscientific evidence that water restriction does not
lengthen the lifespan of a fish.
--Dan
>>> Ben Best 11/20/97 05:11pm >>>
The speculation about water-restriction is also unsubstantiated.
I don't even think it is very persuasive. There might be evolutionary
reasons why humans would be better able to survive if they could fly,
but the fact is -- we do not fly. Nor are we well adapted to air-restriction
-- and there is certainly no evidence that we could extend our lifespan
by resticting our air.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Nov 20 15:51:13 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:48:25 -0500
From: Daniell Stevens
To: CRAN@ListService.net
Cc: benbest@benbest.com
Subject: Increasing discussion on CRANlist. (was
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Ben Best wrote:
> But this doesn't mean that only peer-reviewed scientific
>investigations are allowed. I want this to be a place where people
>share their experiences with attempts to implement
>CRAN or whatever regimen they are using to extend their lifespan.
Maybe I can start things off:
I have been interested in practicing CRAN for about 1 year. So far,
though, I have had no success changing my diet.
If I try to change my diet gradually I have trouble tracking the changes.
Slowly, I begin to feel I'm making no progress, then I become
discouraged.
On the other hand if I decide to practice strict CRAN for 4 weeks and
then to lose weight gradually (what Roy and Lisa describe as "revving
your engine"), I become terribly hungry and then I binge. This, too,
causes me to become discouraged.
My question to you all is this: How did you begin practicing CRAN? How
did you deal with your hunger and the need to change your lifestyle?
I'm not interested in discussions about how quickly to lose weight (I'm
familiar with what Maximum Lifespan and Ani-Aging Plan have to say
on the subject). I'm interested in personal experiences when you were
beginning CRAN.
Thanks in advance for your help,
Dan
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Nov 21 02:20:52 1997
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 04:23:08 -0500
To: CRAN@ListService.net
From: Mike Coward
Subject: Begining CRAN (Re: discus CRAN)
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At 05:48 PM 11/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On the other hand if I decide to practice strict CRAN for 4 weeks and
>then to lose weight gradually (what Roy and Lisa describe as "revving
>your engine"), I become terribly hungry and then I binge.
Ben has the right idea,
try a few mini fasts.
Going 24 hours or more with no food will train both your mind and your body
for fighting binges.
>
>My question to you all is this: How did you begin practicing CRAN?
I saved lunch money in eighth through twelfth grade school.
I avoided cafeteria food for AN,
but my idea of AN has changed since. :-)
>How did you deal with your hunger and the need to change your lifestyle?
I had no choice but to ignore hunger and concentrate on other things.
There were a few rough days with no breakfast or lunch
and I'm sure it reflected on my grades,
but after the day was over I could reflect on my beneifits
and blot out the rest.
I mean, who wants to remember being hungry, forget about it.
>
>I'm not interested in discussions about how quickly to lose weight.
...me neither.
>
>I'm interested in personal experiences when you were
>beginning CRAN.
I won't recall more than that without specific questions.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Nov 21 02:41:54 1997
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 04:44:10 -0500
To: CRAN@ListService.net
From: Mike Coward
Subject: A New List (?), Mini-fasts, Coping, And (Air restriction, etc.)
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At 05:11 PM 11/20/97 -0500, Ben wrote:
>
> Anyway, I am hoping that I haven't overly scared people from posting
>as a result of my policy concerning allowing people to be "voted-out"
>due to excessively vacuous, hostile or unscientific postings.
No, I just don't focus on CR with AN,
I take them for granted.
Anything else that relates to CR goes to crsociety
so the most people can benifit.
>
>I want this to be a place where
>people share their experiences with attempts to implement
>CRAN or whatever regimen they are using to extend their
>lifespan.
..."whatever regimin"?!?
NOW your speaking my language!
If you want to make this a general life-extension list
you got all my votes! :-)
>> I went on a binge.
>This was triggered by an enormous amount of frustration I was
>having. A whole day's worth of calories in a
>couple of hours.
You should have gone for the fructose first,
to calm your mind.
>
> However, I simply let myself enjoy the experience and have
>not "beat-up on myself" very much.
If you have to punish,
use the silent treatment;
take a nap.
I not joking, it works.
>
> Today I have had less than 200 calories and
>will probably be able to finish the day will very little hunger
>and few additional calories.
I had 180 Cal yesterday with no noticable hunger.
I'll have about 560 today
and level eventually level off at 1,500 in a few days.
>
> Opinions are also welcome, but I am not impressed by some
>of the stuff I am now seeing on CRSOCIETY.
...yea.
>
> The speculation about water-restriction is also unsubstantiated.
I want to hear about it as it evolves though.
>
>I don't even think it is very persuasive. There might be evolutionary
>reasons why humans would be better able to survive if they could fly,
>but the fact is -- we do not fly.
If any of our ancestors did fly
they most likely survived
and pasted on traits to the yogis. :-)
>
>Nor are we well adapted to
>air-restriction --
How about mountain people?
>
>and there is certainly no evidence that
>we could extend our lifespan by resticting our air.
I do wish people would stop saying "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE"
and would start asking "IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE?"
All I can say is "I know of no evidence."
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Nov 21 03:07:32 1997
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:07:48 +0100
To: CRAN@ListService.net
From: Felix Ungman
Subject: Re: Beginning CRAN
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Daniell Stevens:
>My question to you all is this: How did you begin practicing CRAN? How
>did you deal with your hunger and the need to change your lifestyle?
I've been struggling with my diet for about two years now, trying
all sorts of ways of planning, cooking and doing CR. This is what works
for me:
- I use the Exchange List system for macronutritional planning.
It's very handy and I have a daily intake table on my desktop.
This way I can estimate my calories even though I don't stick to
my planned meals.
- I plan my next days breakfast and lunch just before I go to sleep.
I found that when I haven't decided what to eat in advance, I usually
end up with "normal" calorie rich food.
- I concentrate on the good feelings of CR. The feeling of being light,
fast and super healthy and the confidence that I'm halting the
aging process inside my cells.
- I take an occational evening off and go to some fine restaurant and
really enjoy.
Optimizing ones diet is a really hard problem. When you make progress
in one direction you soon find that your breaking something somewhere
else. But this is what makes it fun, isn't it...
/felix
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 22 13:17:30 1997
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:51:03 +0000
To: Ben Best ,
Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
From: Ian Eiloart
Subject: Re: Air restriction, e-mail restriction, etc.
Cc: Ben Best
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At 10:11 pm +0000 20/11/97, Ben Best wrote:
>
> The speculation about water-restriction is also unsubstantiated.
>I don't even think it is very persuasive. There might be evolutionary
>reasons why humans would be better able to survive if they could fly,
>but the fact is -- we do not fly. Nor are we well adapted to
>air-restriction -- and there is certainly no evidence that
>we could extend our lifespan by resticting our air.
But when do we experience 'air-restriction'? Maybe during hard exercise.
Now, exercise is known to produce health benefits, so maybe there is
something in this line of speculation-perhaps it isn't the exercise per se,
but the sir restriction that brings the benefits. Strictly speaking, we'd
probably have to call it oxygen restriction. Now, where did I put that
plastic bag?
(Just kidding;^)
Seriously, though, one hypothesised mechanism for aging is oxidative
damage, and it has been suggested that cr might work by reducing oxygen
throughput. Less food metabolised=less respitation=less breathing=less
oxygen passing through the system.
Of course low partial pressure of atmospheric oxygen probably just leads to
adjustment of breathing rates, (I just had to remove that plastic bag, 'cos
I couldn't keep up - don't try this at home unless you are supervised by a
responsible adult;), and increased haemoglobin concentration and so on.
It might be interesting to know if mountain people live longer. Trouble is
that living at high altitudes produces iodine deficiency. Most iodine
intake is from inhalation of atmospherically suspended sea-water droplets,
which does not reach high altitudes, or from contamination of milk with
iodine-based disinfectant used on milking machines (I have a recent British
Medical Journal reference for this if you want it). The result is high
incidence of goitres (up to 25%) and reduction in population IQ (up to 10
points). I don't know if there is an impact on life expectancy or max
lifespan, but there could well be other confounding factors.
--
cheers, Ian
http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/iane
http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/iane/coops
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sat Nov 22 14:37:20 1997
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
From: Brian Rowley
Subject: Re: Air restriction, e-mail restriction, etc.
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Ian Eiloart wrote:
>But when do we experience 'air-restriction'? Maybe during hard exercise.
Actually, sub-maximal exercise oxygenates tissues. During exercise, we start
panting before the CO2 level starts to rise and well before the O2 level
starts to go down. The first impetus to start panting during exercise comes
from stretch receptors in the muscle spindle and proprioceptive nerves in
the joints. Get a friend to lie on his back, grab his ankles and pump his
legs in a vigorous cycling motion. He will start panting even though you're
doing the work. We pant earlier and greater during exercise than we need to,
because the body is hoarding oxygen (in preparation for sudden need to deal
with lactate, etc.) Only during peak output exercise does the amount of
oxygen used up equal the amount of oxygen taken in. Anaerobic respiration
uses oxygen, but only later on to deal with the lactate. During sub-maximal
exercise we take in more oxygen than we need, so exercise has an oxygenating
effect.
>(Just kidding;^)
Living at Altitude
>Of course low partial pressure of atmospheric oxygen probably just leads to
>adjustment of breathing rates, and increased haemoglobin concentration
Right.
Brian
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 23 09:05:26 1997
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Message-ID:
From: Don McSwain
To: "'Felix Ungman'"
Cc: CRAN@ListService.net
Subject: RE: Beginning CRAN
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:05:23 -0800
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Would give us (newbies) a sampling of your menu? For example, a typical
breakfast, lunch and dinner.
P.S.
I would love to see sample menus from others on the list.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Felix Ungman [SMTP:felix@objectzone.se]
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 1997 2:08 AM
> To: CRAN@ListService.net
> Subject: Re: Beginning CRAN
>
> Daniell Stevens:
> >My question to you all is this: How did you begin practicing CRAN? How
> >did you deal with your hunger and the need to change your lifestyle?
>
> I've been struggling with my diet for about two years now, trying
> all sorts of ways of planning, cooking and doing CR. This is what works
> for me:
>
> - I use the Exchange List system for macronutritional planning.
> It's very handy and I have a daily intake table on my desktop.
> This way I can estimate my calories even though I don't stick to
> my planned meals.
>
> - I plan my next days breakfast and lunch just before I go to sleep.
> I found that when I haven't decided what to eat in advance, I usually
> end up with "normal" calorie rich food.
>
> - I concentrate on the good feelings of CR. The feeling of being light,
> fast and super healthy and the confidence that I'm halting the
> aging process inside my cells.
>
> - I take an occational evening off and go to some fine restaurant and
> really enjoy.
>
> Optimizing ones diet is a really hard problem. When you make progress
> in one direction you soon find that your breaking something somewhere
> else. But this is what makes it fun, isn't it...
>
> /felix
>
>
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 23 09:27:12 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:26:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Increasing discussion on CRANlist. (was
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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Daniell Stevens wrote:
> I have been interested in practicing CRAN for about 1 year. So far,
> though, I have had no success changing my diet.
>
> If I try to change my diet gradually I have trouble tracking the changes.
> Slowly, I begin to feel I'm making no progress, then I become
> discouraged.
I originally tracked my progress by simply weighing myself, because
weight losses were dramatic. Later I began weighing my food and
calculating the calories. This is really the best way, I think, although
it can be a lot of work to set-up. Inexpensive, but fairly effective
scales can be picked-up in the kitchen section of a Wal-Mart. My scale
is an electronic Pelouze, which can be bought or ordered from an
office supply or stationary store for $50-$100 (it is used for measuring
postage costs in its intended application).
> On the other hand if I decide to practice strict CRAN for 4 weeks and
> then to lose weight gradually (what Roy and Lisa describe as "revving
> your engine"), I become terribly hungry and then I binge. This, too,
> causes me to become discouraged.
I binge occasionally too, but I have learned not to become overly
discouraged by it. I binge less than I used to. If you practice "strict
CRAN" for 4 weeks and then binge for 1 day, I would say that you are
probably doing OK in the long-term if you can go back to CRAN for another
4 weeks. Remember that in Walford's experiments, the mice were fed
every-other-day. Which means that the animals did an alternate day
"binge". You might think that this would lead to problems due to
a vaulting glycemic index on alternate days, but apparently it was
the total calories that mattered the most.
Try to view all of your dietary practices as a learning experience,
including your binges. Ask yourself what kinds of foods do you tend
to binge on. Can you make those foods less readily available? What
typically starts a binge, and what ends it? Now, I invariably resolve
that after binge I will fast. This works well, and I find that I
can fast very effectively, sometimes effortlessly, after a binge.
Last week I binged on 1800 calories from a box of SHREDDED WHEAT 'N BRAN
within the space of an hour. The next day I ate 158 calories (2 pieces
of cheese and 2 sweet red peppers) and was not particularly hungry.
(It seems somewhat ironic that even though I was binging, I carefully
weighed all my cereal before I ate it.)
> My question to you all is this: How did you begin practicing CRAN? How
> did you deal with your hunger and the need to change your lifestyle?
I began practicing CRAN by altering the types of food that I ate,
without consciously attempt to restrict my calories, although this was
a side-effect. Specifically, I stopped eating meat & pasta. Pounds
started dropping without any other alteration in my lifestyle.
Appetite has been and continues to be a more serious problem for
me than hunger. I can experience hunger for long periods and to an
acute degree before I feel I must succumb to it. But once I start
eating, my appetite gets stimulated. If I walk through a food court
or am around food, my appetite gets stimulated. My biggest problem
is to STOP EATING once I have started.
An effective technique for doing this is to ration food beforehand and
not eat any more than the rationed amount. I do this to some extent by
pre-packaging my "cereal snack" or limiting myself to a single sandwich. I
was also effectively doing this when I was weighing my food and setting an
upper limit to the number of calories I would permit myself to consume in
any one day. When I reached my limit, I would simply stop eating for the
day. Or if I was close to my limit, I would try to carefully plan how I
would apportion my remaining calories.
> I'm not interested in discussions about how quickly to lose weight (I'm
> familiar with what Maximum Lifespan and Ani-Aging Plan have to say
> on the subject). I'm interested in personal experiences when you were
> beginning CRAN.
An unvarnished record of my experiences when I was beginning to
practice CRAN can be found in my "C.R.A.N. Overview" document in the
CRAN section of my website. But why should it be so important what I
was doing at the *beginning*? I am still learning how to practice CRAN,
and I would not do things the same as I did when I was a novice. Don't
you think I haven't learned anything with this struggle? It is a
fascinating challenge, because I continue to learn new things all of
the time about how to more effetively practice CRAN.
I think eliminating meat and all fat & sugar-containing foods as much
as possible is the best way to start. The amount of fats needed for
essential fatty acids is very small. Alcohol is empty calories (7 calories
per gram versus 9 calories per gram for fat and 4 calories per gram for
carbohydrate & protein). I don't drink alcohol (I stopped drinking as a
teenager, mainly because I didn't like the idea of what alcohol was doing
to my brain).
My challenge is to adopt a diet that consists of food that reduces my
appetite & hunger to a minimum while also keeping calories to a minimum.
It has been a long struggle, but I do see progress. My major struggle in
the past year has been with carbohydrates. It took a long time to reduce
my cereal-consumption properly (while finding the right amounts / types to
prevent hemorroids), but I have seen and am seeing progress. I think I
have also seen some significant progress over my bread-eating.
I will say more about these subjects in the near future.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 23 10:15:05 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:14:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: A New List (?), Mini-fasts, Coping, And (Air restriction, etc.)
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On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mike Coward wrote:
> At 05:11 PM 11/20/97 -0500, Ben wrote:
> >I want this to be a place where
> >people share their experiences with attempts to implement
> >CRAN or whatever regimen they are using to extend their
> >lifespan.
>
> ..."whatever regimin"?!?
> NOW your speaking my language!
> If you want to make this a general life-extension list
> you got all my votes! :-)
This is a general life-extension list. I am interested in any
practice that extends lifespan. I take supplements, and I think there
is convincing evidence to believe that they increase MEAN lifespan.
I am also interested in neuropreservation, although this is usually
associated with some lifespan benefit.
> >> I went on a binge.
> >This was triggered by an enormous amount of frustration I was
> >having. A whole day's worth of calories in a
> >couple of hours.
>
> You should have gone for the fructose first,
> to calm your mind.
What evidence do you have for this? I would prefer references
to peer-reviewed journals. If this is based on your own experience,
what inspired you to try/believe this in the first place?
> > However, I simply let myself enjoy the experience and have
> >not "beat-up on myself" very much.
>
> If you have to punish,
> use the silent treatment;
> take a nap.
> I not joking, it works.
A nap is a great way to prevent binging. I associate self-punishment
with self-discipline (and, ultimately, accomplishment). I have
accomplished a great deal, so this association seems to work for me. But
there may be another way...
> >Nor are we well adapted to
> >air-restriction --
>
> How about mountain people?
People are capable of physiological adaptation to high altitude. It
would not surprise me if ethic groups with many decades of experience
living at high altitudes have selected for genes that lead to faster and
more effective adaptation.
This is quite a different matter from the assertion that air
restriction probably extends lifespan based on the essential fact
that people need air to survive. I could have as easily said
Vitamin B restriction, sex restriction or protection-from-the-elements
restriction. Recently I have been practicing sleep restriction (1 hour's
sleep on Friday night) and I have no reason to believe that this will
extend my lifespan. If anything, the opposite. In general, I would
expect the same from food and water.
Actually, in my practice of CRAN my water consumption has gone
up appreciably due to the high quantitiy of high-water vegetables
in my diet -- cucumbers, lettuce, celery, sweet red peppers, cabbage, etc.
I started drinking lots of water as a teenager when I learned that the
water-content of the brain is very high. Last summer I ate crushed ice
as a substitute for food-eating as part of my practice of CRAN. I have
always enjoyed eating ice, and it is a form of eating that has no
caloric content.
> >and there is certainly no evidence that
> >we could extend our lifespan by resticting our air.
>
> I do wish people would stop saying "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE"
> and would start asking "IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE?"
> All I can say is "I know of no evidence."
You have a point. Concerning water restriction, however, I had
already seen a large volume of words and no evidence. There was
no evidence in the words although there had been ample opportunity
for evidence to appear. When this is the case, I can usually guess
that there is no point in even asking for evidence. In other words,
I know bullshit when I see it.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 23 10:27:16 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:26:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Air restriction, e-mail restriction, etc.
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On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Ian Eiloart wrote:
> But when do we experience 'air-restriction'? Maybe during hard exercise.
> Now, exercise is known to produce health benefits, so maybe there is
> something in this line of speculation-perhaps it isn't the exercise per se,
> but the sir restriction that brings the benefits. Strictly speaking, we'd
> probably have to call it oxygen restriction. Now, where did I put that
> plastic bag?
>
> (Just kidding;^)
>
> Seriously, though, one hypothesised mechanism for aging is oxidative
> damage, and it has been suggested that cr might work by reducing oxygen
> throughput. Less food metabolised=less respitation=less breathing=less
> oxygen passing through the system.
This subject got to be much more serious than I intended. Experiments
with hyperbaric oxygen equipment has shown negative consequences to
health (and presumably longevity). Oxidative damage DOES occur. And
I do believe that a major mechanism by which CRAN works (if not THE
major mechanism) is by reduced processing of oxygen by the mitochondria
with resultant reduced production of free-radicals. I believe that
reducing production of free radicals by CRAN is far more effective
than trying to quench the free radicals with anti-oxidant supplements
after they have been produced.
Exercise leads to increased oxygen consumption at the time of
exercise (or shortly thereafter, reducing lactate levels, as Brian
Rowley suggested), but heartrates of exercisers are lower and more
efficient during non-exercise periods (which is most of the time).
So exercise leads to fewer total heartbeats and more efficient
heartbeats in general. I believe this is very positive for MEAN
lifespan increase, although it probably has no effect on MAXIMUM
lifespan.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Sun Nov 23 17:33:07 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:32:14 -0500
To: cran@ListService.net
From: Harris Paltrowitz
Subject: Re: Beginners' Techniques
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At 11:26 AM 11/23/97 -0500, Ben Best wrote:
> I think eliminating meat and all fat & sugar-containing foods as much
>as possible is the best way to start.
I've tried to eliminate meat several times in the past, with never any
success. I get cravings for it, and I can never shake the sensation that a
meal is "incomplete" without some sort of animal flesh. I've even tried to
cut out red meat first, but I never succeeded at that either!
Were cravings and an unsatisfied feeling something you had at the
beginning? If so, how did you deal with them, other than by using sheer
willpower?
Thanks.
Harris
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 25 11:59:33 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:55:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: A New List Title (?) And Sugar For Neuroinhibition
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On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Mike Coward wrote:
> >> At 05:11 PM 11/20/97 -0500, Ben wrote:
> > This is a general life-extension list. I am interested in any
> >practice that extends lifespan. I take supplements, and I think there
> >is convincing evidence to believe that they increase MEAN lifespan.
> >I am also interested in neuropreservation, although this is usually
> >associated with some lifespan benefit.
>
> If life-extension/preservation is most important
> shouldn't the list have a name which reflects it.
> CRAN is important as being a well established form of longevity
> but it implies discussions are limited to it.
If there is no discussion of supplements, I won't be too concerned.
My major emphasis is CRAN, and it is also the life-extension practice
that requires the most discipline, experimentation and adaptation on
my part. Even my discussion of supplements is typically in the context
of CRAN.
I would NOT want to be administering a list that is predominately
a discussion of supplements. I prefer to learn about these matters from
books and scientific journals. Call me autocratic if you like, but I
started the list and this is one preference I have which I want embodied
in the name of the list.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 25 12:03:21 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:00:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Air restriction, e-mail restriction, etc.
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On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Mike Coward wrote:
> At 12:26 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Experiments with hyperbaric oxygen equipment has shown negative
> consequences to
> >health (and presumably longevity).
>
> Please elaborate or refer on negative consequences.
There are lots of good references available on this subject. One
place to look might be the CRC HANDBOOK OF FREE RADICALS AND ANTIOXIDANTS
IN BIOMEDICINE (Jaime Miquel, Editor) 1989
> >I do believe that a major mechanism by which CRAN works (if not THE
> >major mechanism) is by reduced processing of oxygen by the mitochondria
> >with resultant reduced production of free-radicals.
>
> Please elaborate or refer on mitochondrial free-radical inhabition.
Read Dr. Weindruch's article in the January 1996 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN.
> > Exercise leads to increased oxygen consumption at the time of
> >exercise (or shortly thereafter, reducing lactate levels, as Brian
> >Rowley suggested), but heartrates of exercisers are lower and more
> >efficient during non-exercise periods (which is most of the time).
> >So exercise leads to fewer total heartbeats and more efficient
> >heartbeats in general.
>
> What exercises focus on the heart?
Read my essays on cardiovascular disease on my website. I want to
write a piece specifically on exercise that is as comprehensive as the
one I wrote on weight-loss. With any luck I can do this before the
end of January.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 25 12:23:16 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:20:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Beginners' Techniques
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On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Harris Paltrowitz wrote:
> At 11:26 AM 11/23/97 -0500, Ben Best wrote:
> > I think eliminating meat and all fat & sugar-containing foods as much
> >as possible is the best way to start.
>
> I've tried to eliminate meat several times in the past, with never any
> success. I get cravings for it, and I can never shake the sensation that a
> meal is "incomplete" without some sort of animal flesh. I've even tried to
> cut out red meat first, but I never succeeded at that either!
> Were cravings and an unsatisfied feeling something you had at the
> beginning? If so, how did you deal with them, other than by using sheer
> willpower?
Willpower is important, but it isn't everything. Changing the kinds
of foods you eat can reduce your calorie consumption without adversely
affecting nutrition or "hunger".
Many people I meet tell me that they want to change their diet, but
they make it clear that this is a very empty "want". One fellow told me
that he would like to lose weight. I suggested that he stop eating fat.
He told me that he loves eating foods that are dripping with fat. End
of discussion. He has no real commitment.
If you have commitment, and your commitment is unaltering, then I
think you can make progress. Your choices are no progress, slow progress
or fast progress. Any degree of slowness is better than no progress in
my estimation. I have been trying to practice CRAN for 3 years and I am
continuing to learn new things about how to make this work for me with
the least amount of strain & pain.
If you can't eliminate meat completely, how about 1 less meat meal
per week? Work up from there. It took me a long time to go from drinking
2% milk to skim milk, because the latter tasted like water to me. However,
eventually I got used to it (and water isn't so bad). Now if I drink
2% milk it tastes like a fatty cream to me -- not something I like.
It also helps to avoid keeping fatty foods in your house. Avoid
situations where you might eat them.
Psychological re-programming CAN be done. I also grew-up believing that
a meal requires meat. It is a common perception in this culture. Many
people who think they would like to be vegetarian have narrow ideas of
what can be used as "meat substitutes". One woman seemed to think only
beans would do -- and they required too much soaking-time. Actually, I no
longer see any need for a "meat substitute". Every day I take a scoop of
Designer Protein (high-quality whey protein) which is superior to meat in
its protein composition.
I could go on and on -- I have and I will continue to. A large portion
of my postings are concerned with where I am at in finding new techniques
to keep my calories & discomfort low while ensuring adequate nutrition.
I'm not even sure this process is ever going to end. It has been
frustrating at times, but I have seen success & satisfaction as well --
and I find it all quite fascinating as well.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 25 20:19:47 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:18:55 -0500
From: "Michael R. Edelstein"
Subject: Overcoming Hunger (was: Beginners' Techniques
Cc: CRAN List
Message-ID: <199711252219_MC2-29B2-A102@compuserve.com>
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> From: Harris Paltrowitz
> Were cravings and an unsatisfied feeling something you had at the=
> beginning? If so, how did you deal with them, other than by using shee=
r
> willpower?
> =
> Thanks.
> Harris
Harris, here's a powerful method to stop eating meat. =
It may seem too easy or foolish at first, but it works!
=
Send me a $100 check and agree that if you eat any =
meat in the next 30 days, you will instruct me to deposit =
your check. In turn, I agree that if you don't eat any meat =
in the next 30 days, I will return the undeposited check =
to you. =
You'll probably find that once you make a strong =
commitment to avoid meat, your hunger and
cravings for meat become easier to manage.
Of course, you have the option of lying to me about =
what you ate, but I'm willing to take that risk, and will =
honor your word.
This is a standard behavioral tool for weight loss.
I have used this technique myself, and have used it =
with others quite successfully. You can read more =
about this strategy in my book THREE MINUTE
THERAPY (see below), in the chapter on compulsive
eating. =
Let me know if you're interested, and I'll email my =
address. If you have questions about this, please ask!
Michael
Michael R. Edelstein, Ph.D. =
Clinical Psychologist
San Francisco
415-673-2848 (24 hours)
Author of THREE MINUTE THERAPY: =
CHANGE YOUR THINKING, CHANGE YOUR LIFE*
(with David Ramsay Steele, Ph.D.)
FEATURES HELP FOR ANXIETY, DEPRESSION,
RELATIONSHIPS, PANIC ATTACKS AND ADDICTION
*A Quality Paperback Book Club/Book-of-the-Month Club Selection
TO ORDER: www.amazon.com
Or toll free: 1-800-986-4135
DrEdelstein@ThreeMinuteTherapy.com
www.ThreeMinuteTherapy.com
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Nov 25 22:18:11 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:17:16 -0500
To: cran@ListService.net
From: Harris Paltrowitz
Subject: Re: Beginners' Techniques
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At 02:20 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Ben Best wrote:
> Willpower is important, but it isn't everything. Changing the kinds
>of foods you eat can reduce your calorie consumption without adversely
>affecting nutrition or "hunger".
Thanks very much for all of your suggestions. I've tried a lot of these
in the past, such as meat substitutes (e.g. tofu, tempeh, beans) and never
had the same feeling of satiety. It seemed that as that "unsatisfied"
feeling was starting to overwhelm me (i.e. after about a week of reduced
flesh intake) I'd read some posting on the Zone diet, or maybe even the
Atkins diet, and start feeling that maybe a balanced carb/protein approach
would work better. But I never could discipline myself with those diets,
either . . .
I do notice, though, that as Ben said, changing the kinds of foods you eat
can really make a difference in satiety. For example, on two separate days
last week I found myself eating in the office cafeteria for lunch. Same
time of day, same thing for breakfast . . . one day I chose a grilled
chicken breast sandwich with seasoned curly fries (absolutely delicious).
Even with some lettuce and tomato on the sandwich, the fiber content was
pretty low. However, even though the fat content was high, I felt hungry
and somewhat unsatisfied afterward. The other day I chose the "asian wok"
where you pick your raw veggies, add some chicken, and the guy stir-fries
it for you. Big difference - lots of high-fiber veggies, very little fat.
Medium-size serving of chicken, and small side of rice. After that I
really felt full! And the satiety lasted all afternoon.
I think maybe that's it - much more fiber will help reduce hunger,
therefore automatically cutting calories two different ways!
Harris
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Nov 26 11:20:45 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:19:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Beginners' Techniques
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On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Harris Paltrowitz wrote:
> At 02:20 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Ben Best wrote:
>
> > Willpower is important, but it isn't everything. Changing the kinds
> >of foods you eat can reduce your calorie consumption without adversely
> >affecting nutrition or "hunger".
>
> Thanks very much for all of your suggestions. I've tried a lot of these
> in the past, such as meat substitutes (e.g. tofu, tempeh, beans) and never
> had the same feeling of satiety. It seemed that as that "unsatisfied"
> feeling was starting to overwhelm me
[snip]
> I do notice, though, that as Ben said, changing the kinds of foods you eat
> can really make a difference in satiety.
[snip]
> The other day I chose the "asian wok"
> where you pick your raw veggies, add some chicken, and the guy stir-fries
> it for you. Big difference - lots of high-fiber veggies, very little fat.
> Medium-size serving of chicken, and small side of rice. After that I
> really felt full! And the satiety lasted all afternoon.
> I think maybe that's it - much more fiber will help reduce hunger,
> therefore automatically cutting calories two different ways!
Thanks for your feedback. Yes, high fibre foods are an excellent
way to cut your calories without cutting satiety. I will have to remember
in the future to emphasize the positive along with the negative -- less
fatty food and more high-fibre food. There does seem to be some truth
to the "stomach filling" theory of satiety.
The foods I currently eat are both high in fibre and high in water
content, meaning vegetables: cabbage, sweet red peppers, cucumbers,
celery, tomatoes. The next time you want something sweet, I highly
recommend sweet red peppers for low calorie content. I have been eating
lots of cucumbers as well. I like fresh (unvinegared) pickles as well
(which I count as cucumbers), but for some reason when I eat too many
cucumbers I start finding the skins repulsive. So I will peel them with
an apple-peeler.
With persistance, I beleive, you can actually CHANGE your satiety
response to certain foods. This has been my experience. When I stop eating
certain foods, eventually I loose all craving for those foods. When I
force myself to eat certain foods, eventually I develop a certain craving
for them. But there are limits to this. After eating lots and lots of
vegetables I will reach the point of wanting no more and wanting something
"solid", like something high in complex carbohydrate or protein.
Typically, this will end up being my homemade bread, these days. Or
nonfat cheese. I sometimes turn to cheese because I will get cravings
for "flavor" of some kind, and I find cheese to be intensely flavorful.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Nov 27 02:24:12 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:14:10 -0800
From: Paul Wakfer
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Ben Best wrote:
> The foods I currently eat are both high in fibre and high in water
> content, meaning vegetables: cabbage, sweet red peppers, cucumbers,
> celery, tomatoes. The next time you want something sweet, I highly
> recommend sweet red peppers for low calorie content.
I highly recommend both green and yellow bell peppers as well. The different colors
provide a variety of carotenoids. Ben is right about the excellent raw taste of the
sweet red, but the yellow are a close second. I also eat a lot of raw zucchini which I
find have excellent flavor and palatability.
> I have been eating
> lots of cucumbers as well. I like fresh (unvinegared) pickles as well
> (which I count as cucumbers), but for some reason when I eat too many
> cucumbers I start finding the skins repulsive. So I will peel them with
> an apple-peeler.
This is wise anyway, since I think that almost all non-pickling cucumbers (ie the
larger dark green ones) have their skins coated with vegetable oil to many them more
skinny and marketable. This oil, of course, will most likely be oxidized and will have
dissolve various pollutants by the time you eat them. Much as I hate to peel things, I
always peel cucumbers unless I can really take the time to thoroughly scrub them. BTW,
one way to eat skins and cores (including seeds) or everything is to put it through a
blender and have a puréed "salad". I know always eat the pulp and seeds of squash,
cantaloupe and peppers by doing that. The method also allows one to make palatable and
eat much more of the bioflavinoid containing white portions of oranges and
grapefruits.
> With persistance, I beleive, you can actually CHANGE your satiety
> response to certain foods. This has been my experience. When I stop eating
> certain foods, eventually I loose all craving for those foods. When I
> force myself to eat certain foods, eventually I develop a certain craving
> for them. But there are limits to this. After eating lots and lots of
> vegetables I will reach the point of wanting no more and wanting something
> "solid", like something high in complex carbohydrate or protein.
I think these reactions are very individual. This particular one does not happen to
me. For many months now, I have been eating no more complex carbos than an average of
one multi-grain slice of bread per day.
> Typically, this will end up being my homemade bread, these days. Or
> nonfat cheese. I sometimes turn to cheese because I will get cravings
> for "flavor" of some kind, and I find cheese to be intensely flavorful.
My blended purees of fruits or vegetables are a never ending source of new and
delightful flavors that keep me quite flavor satisfied.
-- Paul --
wakfer@gte.net Voice/Fax:909-481-9620 Page:800-805-2870
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Nov 27 02:35:27 1997
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:35:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: cran@listservice.net
Subject: Effects of a raw food diet.
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Authors
Douglass JM. Rasgon IM. Fleiss PM. Schmidt RD. Peters SN. Abelmann EA.
Title
Effects of a raw food diet on hypertension and obesity.
Source
Southern Medical Journal. 78(7):841-4, 1985 Jul.
Abstract
We examined responses to cooked and uncooked food in 32 outpatients with
essential hypertension; 28 were also overweight. By varying
cooked and uncooked food percentages and salt intake, patients acted as their
own control subjects in this unblinded study. After a mean duration of 6.7
months, average intake of uncooked food comprised 62% of calories ingested.
Mean weight loss was 3.8 kg and mean diastolic pressure reduction 17.8 mm Hg,
both statistically significant (P less than .00001). Eighty percent of those
who smoked or drank alcohol abstained spontaneously.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Nov 27 11:35:26 1997
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From: "Phil Harris"
To: "Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver"
Subject: Re: Effects of a raw food diet.
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 18:31:39 -0000
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It has taken me 18 months to get round to it, but I am trying a raw food
diet maybe for a month. I have been going for about a week. I am working
from home for a while and that makes it easier. A guy who was keen on raw
food got thrown off the CR list last year if I remember, but I thought it a
potentially interesting way of delivering CRAN. It is a bit difficult to
organise. I have obtained some organic quality oat groats and barley and
rye berries which seem to be untreated (alive) and I soak these and some
green lentils. The oats, barley and lentils can be eaten after 24 hours or
so, though I leave the lentils longer. (Soaking rye takes longer and you
end up with sprouted grass. Soaked rice still needs grinding with something
dry.) For flavouring the whole berries I grind up a little supplement of
dry oatbran with a few raisins and occasionally half a tspn of
linseed/flaxseed and cut in some banana. Raw white of egg will blend in
and tastes OK though I have not used much. I have devised some blended
vegetables (of the kind mentioned by Ben and Paul; some recipes taste very
good), to go with the lentils and eat my fruit and greens raw as usual. ( I
worked up to this and I like young raw scotch curly kale). I make a
concession to cooking a home made tomato soup with a little olive oil. I
have occasionally cooked a few spoonfulls of Soya flour (8%oil, 50%protein)
in with the soup because I am not sure about taking possibly unheated
soya. My old livestock rations textbook tells me about toxic soya proteins
and trypsin inhibitors that are denatured by heat.
Early days and I miss the 'hot food' and Edgar Denny's routine sounds
attractive (see today's post to cr soc), but some of the effects appear
benign. Much easier to take in fewer calories. I take at least x5 small
meals a day, which I find makes a big difference so it may not just be the
raw food. Less flatulence; the latter had begun to bother me recently.
Variety could be increased. Will report back if I go to the end of the
month.
Guess the patients below got the benefits of a change to a CRAN diet
best wishes
Phil Harris
Doug Skrecky WROTE
>
> Subject: Effects of a raw food diet.
> Date: 27 November 1997 09:35
>
> Authors
> Douglass JM. Rasgon IM. Fleiss PM. Schmidt RD. Peters SN. Abelmann
EA.
> Title
> Effects of a raw food diet on hypertension and obesity.
> Source
> Southern Medical Journal. 78(7):841-4, 1985 Jul.
>
> Abstract
> We examined responses to cooked and uncooked food in 32 outpatients
with
> essential hypertension; 28 were also overweight. By varying
> cooked and uncooked food percentages and salt intake, patients acted as
their
> own control subjects in this unblinded study. After a mean duration of
6.7
> months, average intake of uncooked food comprised 62% of calories
ingested.
> Mean weight loss was 3.8 kg and mean diastolic pressure reduction 17.8
mm Hg,
> both statistically significant (P less than .00001). Eighty percent of
those
> who smoked or drank alcohol abstained spontaneously.
>
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Nov 28 18:29:31 1997
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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:28:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Archives for the CRAN list
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I am archiving the postings to the CRAN Listserver
on a monthly basis at my website. The URL for the
archives is:
http://www.benbest.com/CRAN
So far, only the file for the month of October (beginning
October 28) is there, plus an introduction and tables of contents
by topic & by chronology.
Soon I will be archiving the file for the month of November.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
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