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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:18:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
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Subject: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
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PHYTOCHEMICALS AS NUTRIENTS, SOME MUSINGS AND SOME QUESTIONS
This is the first message of the new CRAN list, and is being sent
to the 26 charter subscribers to the new list. It is a somewhat
speculative piece, since I think raising questions may be the best
way to start discussions.
Phytochemicals reputedly reduce the incidence of cancer (isn't this
the most often cited benefit?). I believe that most of the evidence for
this is epidemiological. The use of this epistemological method has created
some problems. For example, although people with high blood levels of
beta-carotene have been shown to have lower incidence of cancer, it is
believed that the beta-carotene is only an indicator (a "proxy variable")
of a diet high in fruits & vegetables rather than proof that beta-carotene
prevents cancer. Presumably, some *other* phytochemicals found in the
vegetables along with the beta-carotene would be the true protector
against cancer.
I am wondering what references are available that offer the most
definitive proof of any one phytochemical preventing cancer -- especially
based on animal studies rather than epidemiology. In particular, I would
be interested if any dose-response curves have been produced. I would
presume that these would be logarithmic rather than linear. Selenium is
a mineral rather than a phytochemical -- and is toxic in high doses --
but its anti-carcinogenic properties seem to have been well-established
(although again, on epidemiological grounds). Phytochemicals may not be
so toxic in high doses, so would probably show a different dose-response
curve.
What I would really like to see is a complete catalog of all known
phytochemicals, the sources of those phytochemicals, a ranking of the
phytochemicals by anti-carcinogenicity and a listing of optimal dosages.
Plus, some indication of mechanism of action (would there be any other
mechanism aside from anti-oxidation?). I think we are a long way from
such knowledge, but I would be interested in any references anyone
could provide.
Phytochemicals don't really fit my definition of "nutrient", insofar
as their absence doesn't produce a deficiency disease other than
"a greater tendency to get cancer". There can be no distinction between
"adequate dose" and "optimal dose" under these conditions.
Plant foods include nuts, grains, legumes, fruits & vegetables, yet
anti-carcinogenic phytochemicals are rarely associated with nuts or
grains. Of legumes, only soybeans has a reputation as a substantial
source of phytochemicals. Most fruits & vegetables are presumed high
in phytochemicals, but some are richer sources than others. I have
heard that it is the bright colorants of fruits & vegetables which are
the phytochemicals (the blue of blueberries, the red of cherries, etc.),
but I have no idea why this would be the case. Does anyone know anything
about this? And what plant properties would be most conducive to the
development of phytochemicals? High sun exposure requiring more anti-oxidant
protection for the plant? High sugar content requiring more protection?
I'm not just grasping at straws to start discussion. I would really
like to learn more about this topic. It seems that phytochemicals are
the primary emphasis for an "over-eating" based on the desire to ensure
getting enough "undiscovered nutrients". ("Paranoid cafeteria eating" is
what I have called it.)
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:36:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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It is reasonable to expect that people could easily get in the habit of
sending their postings to both the CRSOCIETY and the CRAN lists.
Currently, since everyone on the CRAN list is probably also on the
CRSOCIETY list this will be a nuisance because it will only mean that CRAN
subscribers get duplicate postings.
I expect that the CRAN subscriber list will largely be a subset
of the CRSOCIETY list for quite a while. For this reason alone, I
ask subscribers to please resist the temptation to cross-post. And
I would hope that this could become a habit for the indefinite future.
It may be that these lists will develop a strong distintiveness -- and
that people who are interested in what each list has to offer will
subscribe to both.
-- Ben
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Oct 28 02:23:45 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 01:23:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: Ben Best
cc: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
Subject: Re: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Ben Best wrote:
> Phytochemicals reputedly reduce the incidence of cancer (isn't this
> the most often cited benefit?). I believe that most of the evidence for
> this is epidemiological. The use of this epistemological method has created
> some problems. For example, although people with high blood levels of
> beta-carotene have been shown to have lower incidence of cancer, it is
> believed that the beta-carotene is only an indicator (a "proxy variable")
> of a diet high in fruits & vegetables rather than proof that beta-carotene
> prevents cancer. Presumably, some *other* phytochemicals found in the
> vegetables along with the beta-carotene would be the true protector
> against cancer.
>
The major phytochemical in the human diet responsible for altering
cancer and cardiovascular disease risk is probably lycopene. The October
21'st 1997 issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper mentioned a study
published in the current issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology.
Quote:
"Findings from the new study indicate that lycopene is most likely the
substance responsible for the protection against heart disease and cancer
that had long been thought to result from consuming beta carotene.
When the research team, headed by Dr. Lenore Kohlmeier,
simultaneously examined levels in body fat of lycopene, alpha and beta
carotene and lutein, another carotenoid, lycopene alone seemed to account
for the reduced risk of heart disease."
Although quite a lot of evidence has piled up regarding the dominant
effect of lycopene on cancer risk, this is the first study which examined
its effect on cardiovascular disease risk. My local university does not
yet have the latest issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology, but
when it does become available I will report further details.
It seems that the recipe for a long life: fruits, vegetables and a
positive attitute might now be replaced by tomatoes, tomatoes, and yet
more tomatoes.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Oct 28 07:24:19 1997
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From: "Phil Harris"
To:
Subject: Re: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:23:06 -0000
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----------
> From: Ben Best
> To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
> Cc: Ben Best
> Subject: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
> Date: 28 October 1997 05:18
>
>
> PHYTOCHEMICALS AS NUTRIENTS, SOME MUSINGS AND SOME QUESTIONS
>
> This is the first message of the new CRAN list, and is being sent
> to the 26 charter subscribers to the new list.SNIP
> I am wondering what references are available that offer the most
> definitive proof of any one phytochemical preventing cancer -- especially
> based on animal studies rather than epidemiology. SNIP>
'Cancer Chemopreventive Activity of Resveratrol, a Natural Product Derived
from Grapes' January 10 1997, Jang M. et al. Science 275 218-220.
My comment:- thorough going study with theoretically informed culture assay
systems plus direct test in a mouse model. Interestingly the authors
discuss their study in relation to several epidemiological studies
(references available in the paper). I strongly suggest that
epidemiological evidence is a useful cross reference for assay and
experimental results, despite Ben's preference. Resveratrol, quote, 'is
thought to be a phytoalexin produced in times of environmental stress or
parasitic attack'. It is found in fresh grape skins at 50-100 micrograms
per gram of skins and thought to be physiologically active in humans at
around 500 micrograms per day. The latter can be delivered by 2-5 glasss of
red wine per day but this means an appreciable intake of alcohol.
best wishes
Phil Harris
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From: "Phil Harris"
To:
Subject: re- resveratrol
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:04:23 -0000
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I forgot to mention that the paper on anti-cancer resveratrol discusses
briefly reports that it also plays a role in the prevention of heart
disease because it has been reported to inhibit platelet aggregation and
coagulation, alter eicosanoid synthesis, and modulate lipoprotein
metabolism (see Science paper for refernces).
I eat a lot of organically grown tomato paste as well as grapes these days.
The grapes despite their sugar. Also the fairly regular glass of red wine
despite, as well as because of, the alcohol.
best wishes
phil harris
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Oct 28 16:51:52 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:51:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: Phil Harris
cc: CRAN@ListService.net
Subject: Re: resveratrol
In-Reply-To: <199710282205.PAA08237@listservice.net>
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Phil Harris wrote:
> I forgot to mention that the paper on anti-cancer resveratrol discusses
> briefly reports that it also plays a role in the prevention of heart
> disease because it has been reported to inhibit platelet aggregation and
> coagulation, alter eicosanoid synthesis, and modulate lipoprotein
> metabolism (see Science paper for refernces).
>
Check out the following ref: (the title says it all)
"Resveratrol Promotes Atherosclerosis in Hypercholerolemic Rabbits"
Life Sciences 59(1): 15-21 1996
Another interesting ref:
"Wine: Does the Colour Count"
Clinica Chimica Acta 246: 183-193 1996
Quote from the above ref: "The favourable effects of wines in modulating
plasma lipid and lipoprotein concentrations are probably due to their
alcohol content and cannot be reproduced by grape juices"
Looks like the active ingrediant in wine is its alcohol content.
Bottoms up..... !)
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Oct 28 18:51:24 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:49:03 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Cross-posting
To: cranlist
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:36:24 -0500 (EST), Ben Best wrote:
>It may be that these lists will develop a strong distintiveness -- and
>that people who are interested in what each list has to offer will
>take part in both.
I believe that has happened already with your incisive posting
on phytochemicals (to which I intend to reply in detail). That
post immediately set the tone of the list as being one where we
should and will strongly delve into the "AN" and even the "ON"
aspects of caloric restriction. This is something which were
almost not "allowed" to do on the other list because of Brian
Delaney's tactics.
I very much look forward to sound scientific discusions of all
issues of life extension centered around caloric restriction
taking place on this list. In that context, I will be prepared
to participate here much more that on the other list, on which
I will still remain a lurker, however.
After doing a bit of research, I will make a detailed response
to your phytochemicals posting.
Thanks for setting up this list. I suggest that you announce it
on the newsgroups sci.life-extension and sci.med.nutrition, at
least. Other possible newsgroups and lists on which to announce
it are sci.cryonics, misc.health.alternative, sci.med,
bionet.molbio.ageing, sci.bio.misc, bionet.announce, CryoNet,
and Longevity Digest.
I can help you with some of these if you need it.
-- Paul Wakfer --
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:49:31 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: re- resveratrol
To: cranlist
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On 28 Oct 1997 22:05:27, Phil Harris wrote:
>I eat a lot of organically grown tomato paste
Are you aware that the lycopene is metabolized more efficiently
if it comes combined with (disolved in) oil? As I understand it
tomato paste doesn't have any oil. That is why I am eating both
peanut butter and tomato sandwiches (long a favorite of mine, but
I don't pile on as much peanut butter as I used to) and pasta
sauce made with only pure olive oil. I use the pasta sauce
(Barilla brand - tomato and basil) on virtually everything I eat
these days.
-- Paul --
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:38:37 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: resveratrol
To: cranlist
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:51:40 -0800 (PST), Doug Skrecky wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Phil Harris wrote:
>> I forgot to mention that the paper on anti-cancer resveratrol discusses
>> briefly reports that it also plays a role in the prevention of heart
>> disease because it has been reported to inhibit platelet aggregation and
>> coagulation, alter eicosanoid synthesis, and modulate lipoprotein
>> metabolism (see Science paper for refernces).
>
>Check out the following ref: (the title says it all)
Nonsense! This is shallow science at its worst. A tittle can never
'say it all'. Nor can an abstract for that matter. One really isn't
'scientifically' entitled to conclude anything at all until one has
studied the entire paper and its references. Sometimes not even then!
>"Resveratrol Promotes Atherosclerosis in Hypercholerolemic Rabbits"
>Life Sciences 59(1): 15-21 1996
>Another interesting ref:
>"Wine: Does the Colour Count"
>Clinica Chimica Acta 246: 183-193 1996
>Quote from the above ref: "The favourable effects of wines in modulating
>plasma lipid and lipoprotein concentrations are probably due to their
>alcohol content and cannot be reproduced by grape juices"
>Looks like the active ingrediant in wine is its alcohol content.
>Bottoms up..... !)
Doug,
This is the kind of "wipping out the abstract gun" and
"shooting from the hip" type of posting which Brian Delaney
has rightly criticized you for. I don't mean to support Brian
here, because he has major problems too, as witnessed by his
hostile attacks on Ben on the CRSociety list and other
people on the sci.life-extension ng.
Please restrict yourself to presenting the facts that you find
(which you are excellent at), instead of following them with
flippant, unscientific conclusions. Or if you wish to point out
some conclusions, do so in a more tentative and less 'superior'
manner. This should especially be the case when there are many
intelligent and thoughtful scientists who disagree with your
conclusion.
Your conclusions are starting to remind me more and more of Jeff
and we certainly don't want that :)
-- Paul --
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:43:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Mike Coward wrote:
> I'm not sure what phytochemicals you are looking for.
> It is my understanding that any plant chemical is a phytochemical.
> So I help you with what I can.
Literally, that is true, but I think that the term evolved
very recently in reference primarily to anticarcinogenic chemicals,
rather than chemicals like poison ivy.
> > phytochemicals, the sources of those phytochemicals, a ranking of the=
=20
> > phytochemicals by anti-carcinogenicity and a listing of optimal dosages=
=2E
> > Plus, some indication of mechanism of action (would there be any other=
=20
> > mechanism aside from anti-oxidation?).
>=20
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> WHOAH! That's a big request.
> I think you're going to like this:
> http://www.anonymizer.com:8080/http://sun.ars-grin.gov/~ngrlsb/
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This looks like a useful reference, and I have only glanced
at it. My browser fails unless I start at the second "http".
> Database of Biologically Active Phytochemicals and Their Activities
>=20
> 1.Database Name:: Database of Biologically Active Phytochemicals and Thei=
r
> Activities=20
> 2.Brief Description: Includes some 3,000 biologically active phytochemica=
ls
> (elements and compounds) from higher plants. The data includes at least o=
ne
> and in some cases as many as 25 biological activities for each
> phytochemical, as well as data on effective dose, inhibitory
> concentrations, and lethal and/or toxic doses. Using WordPerfect=AE 5.1's
I found the book in the library by James A. Duke under this title. It=20
is mostly lists and short descriptions -- words like "hallucinogenic",
"fungicidic", etc. This is herbalism, and not really what I had in mind.
> My first hour of research was free,=20
> if you want more my wallet has to be thickened. :-)
Thank you very much for that hour. It really was appreciated.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Tue Oct 28 23:50:33 1997
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From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Phil Harris wrote:
> > I am wondering what references are available that offer the most
> > definitive proof of any one phytochemical preventing cancer -- especially
> > based on animal studies rather than epidemiology. SNIP>
>
>
> 'Cancer Chemopreventive Activity of Resveratrol, a Natural Product Derived
> from Grapes' January 10 1997, Jang M. et al. Science 275 218-220.
> My comment:- thorough going study with theoretically informed culture assay
> systems plus direct test in a mouse model. Interestingly the authors
> discuss their study in relation to several epidemiological studies
> (references available in the paper). I strongly suggest that
> epidemiological evidence is a useful cross reference for assay and
> experimental results, despite Ben's preference. Resveratrol, quote, 'is
> thought to be a phytoalexin produced in times of environmental stress or
> parasitic attack'. It is found in fresh grape skins at 50-100 micrograms
> per gram of skins and thought to be physiologically active in humans at
> around 500 micrograms per day. The latter can be delivered by 2-5 glasss of
> red wine per day but this means an appreciable intake of alcohol.
> best wishes
> Phil Harris
I checked-out the article. The most interesting thing for me was the
fact that it actually gave a mechanism of action for the anti-carcinogenic
properties, namely inhibition of cyclooxygenase.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Oct 29 00:05:49 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:04:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Publicity
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Paul Wakfer wrote:
> Thanks for setting up this list. I suggest that you announce it
> on the newsgroups sci.life-extension and sci.med.nutrition, at
> least. Other possible newsgroups and lists on which to announce
> it are sci.cryonics, misc.health.alternative, sci.med,
> bionet.molbio.ageing, sci.bio.misc, bionet.announce, CryoNet,
> and Longevity Digest.
>
> I can help you with some of these if you need it.
Thank you for the offer, but I am not really hungry for
publicity. Administering a list can be a lot of work (this is
my third list), what with bounced messages, auto-forwarding
from people on vacations, hostility from disgruntled subscribers,
etc. I am much more interested in quality than quantity. My greatest
preference would be to get a few more people from the CRSOCIETY
list.
I DO place a great emphasis on the practice and value of CRAN. The
"AN" part of CRAN does not refer to things like phytochemicals or deprenyl
or DHEA,etc. These nutrients, hormones, etc. provide benefits ABOVE those
provided by CRAN. (The "AN" refers to nutrients adequate to prevent
deficiency disease.)
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
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From: "Phil Harris"
To:
Subject: Re: re- resveratrol (lycopene actually)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:19:12 -0000
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PAUL Wakfer WROTE-on 29 October---------
>
> On 28 Oct 1997 22:05:27, Phil Harris wrote:
>
> >I eat a lot of organically grown tomato paste
>
> Are you aware that the lycopene is metabolized more efficiently
> if it comes combined with (disolved in) oil? As I understand it
> tomato paste doesn't have any oil. That is why I am eating both
> peanut butter and tomato sandwiches (long a favorite of mine, but
> I don't pile on as much peanut butter as I used to) and pasta
> sauce made with only pure olive oil. I use the pasta sauce
> (Barilla brand - tomato and basil) on virtually everything I eat
> these days.
>
> -- Paul --
THANKS PAUL
I thought I would take the liberty and repost one of Brian Chiko's useful
posts of earlier this year. I buy jars of my paste and am pretty liberal
with it. I go roughly on the solids content and have compared this with the
540ml of tomato juice quoted in Brian's snippet below. I used to
religiously add a tspfl (3-5ml) of olive oil and re-cook but I do not
bother much now. I keep meaning to check out with the Heinz people (see
address below) but never got round to it. Guess that is still a good idea.
Is it cooking temperature rather than oil per se?
bestwishes
phil harris
BRIAN Chiko WROTE
>Thought you might find this interesting,
============================================================================
>SUBJECT: STUDY OF TOMATO JUICE CONFIRMS BIOAVAILABILITY OF LYCOPENE AND
LINK TO REDUCED RISK OF CANCER
>SOURCE: Canada NewsWire
>DATE: July 28, 1997
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>TORONTO, July 28 /CNW/ via Individual Inc. -- A year-long study
conducted
>by the University of Toronto on dietary lycopene in tomato juice had
>confirmed its bioavailablity and in-vivo antioxidant properties. The
>independent medical research conducted by Dr. A. Venket Rao, Professor,
>Department of Nutritional Sciences, Faculty of Medicine postulated that
>lycopene once absorbed acts as an antioxidant, lowering the risk of
chronic
>diseases including cancer.
>``In this study, we demonstrated that lycopene from tomato juice is
indeed
>bioavailable, is an in-vivo antioxidant and lowers biomolecular
oxidation,''
>said Dr. Venket Rao. ``We showed that these results can be obtained by
>consuming only 540 ml of tomato juice daily.''
>Rao said his research showed that as blood lycopene levels go up, the
>levels of oxidized compounds go down. The study was sponsored in part
>through funding provided by Heinz Canada, a leading manufacturer of
>processed tomato products.
>Nineteen healthy subjects (ten male and nine female), age group 25 to 40
>years old, were chosen for this study. A randomized cross-over study
design
>was used. All subjects completed three levels of lycopene 0, 75, 150 mg
per
>day as capsules and 540 ml of tomato juice, with standardized breakfast.
>Subjects avoided the consumption of tomatoes, tomato products and other
>sources of lycopene throughout the study period.
>``This study represents an important breakthrough in the scientific
>research on lycopene,'' said Dr. David Yeung, Director of Corporate
>Nutrition, H.J. Heinz Company. ``We have been very interested in
>investigating the notion that processing actually enhances the
.bioavailability of lycopene in tomatoes. The results now demonstrate the
>bioavailability and protective role lycopenes can play in the prevention
of
>cancer and heart disease.''
>Future studies will be aimed at establishing the relationship between
>dietary lycopene, oxidative stress and cancer risk using dietary
>intervention studies involving both normal and at high risk human
subjects.
>/For further information: Anna Relyea, Heinz Canada Communications
>Manager, (416) 226-7587; Dr. A. Venket Rao, (416) 978-3621/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Oct 29 08:24:06 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:22:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Doug Skrecky wrote:
> When the research team, headed by Dr. Lenore Kohlmeier,
> simultaneously examined levels in body fat of lycopene, alpha and beta
> carotene and lutein, another carotenoid, lycopene alone seemed to account
> for the reduced risk of heart disease."
> Although quite a lot of evidence has piled up regarding the dominant
> effect of lycopene on cancer risk, this is the first study which examined
> its effect on cardiovascular disease risk. My local university does not
> yet have the latest issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology, but
> when it does become available I will report further details.
> It seems that the recipe for a long life: fruits, vegetables and a
> positive attitute might now be replaced by tomatoes, tomatoes, and yet
> more tomatoes.
I should research this, but perhaps you can tell me, lycopene is the
colorant of tomatoes, is it not? If so, then it would be well to add RED
tomatoes, and the REDDEST TOMATOES YOU CAN FIND.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Oct 29 08:33:46 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:31:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
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To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Re: resveratrol
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Doug Skrecky wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Phil Harris wrote:
>
> > I forgot to mention that the paper on anti-cancer resveratrol discusses
> > briefly reports that it also plays a role in the prevention of heart
> > disease because it has been reported to inhibit platelet aggregation and
> > coagulation, alter eicosanoid synthesis, and modulate lipoprotein
> > metabolism (see Science paper for refernces).
>
> Another interesting ref:
>
> "Wine: Does the Colour Count"
> Clinica Chimica Acta 246: 183-193 1996
>
> Quote from the above ref: "The favourable effects of wines in modulating
> plasma lipid and lipoprotein concentrations are probably due to their
> alcohol content and cannot be reproduced by grape juices"
>
> Looks like the active ingrediant in wine is its alcohol content.
> Bottoms up..... !)
This is one of the problems with epidemiological studies. There are
much better ways to increase the HDL/LDL ratio than by drinking alcohol.
Exercise and niacin are my preferred ways. Whether alcohol would add any
benefit after exercise & niacin is an unanswered question, but even if it
did, I would not want to use it (I am a "teetotaler"). People too often
look at only one effect of a chemical at a time. To evaluate a chemical
-- including alcohol -- you must look at ALL of the effects of that
chemical, not just one. Then do a "cost/benefit analysis" on the sum
effects. I think alcohol has too many negative effects for me to be
very impressed with the few positive ones. Most important being temporary
and possibly also permanent reduction of brain function.
Frankly, I sometimes wonder if my cholesterol levels are not too low
for optimum health. My HDL/LDL ratios are excellent. An epidemiological
benefit from HDL/LDL improvement for non-exersizers who do not take niacin
is of little relevance to me.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Oct 29 09:24:44 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:26:09 +0000
To: Ben Best ,
Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
From: Ian Eiloart
Subject: Adequate Nutrition
Cc: Ben Best
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At 7:04 am +0000 29/10/97, Ben Best wrote:
>
> I DO place a great emphasis on the practice and value of CRAN. The
>"AN" part of CRAN does not refer to things like phytochemicals or deprenyl
>or DHEA,etc. These nutrients, hormones, etc. provide benefits ABOVE those
>provided by CRAN. (The "AN" refers to nutrients adequate to prevent
>deficiency disease.)
>
But how do you define a deficiency disease? Are the cancers that are
prevented by eating fresh fruit and veg 'deficiency diseases'? If not, why
not?
Maybe the conventional view is that diseases like scurvy are deficeincy
diseases, and these are characterised by being fairly dramatic, fast
responses to lack of specific nutrients that have been historically easy to
identify-and the ones that aren't fats and proteins got called vitamins.
The Scientific American special edition on cancer estimated that one third
of preventable cancers are due to poor nutrition. Surely this is a major
factor in figuring out what 'adequate nutrition means'.
BTW, last week all the UK newspapers wre reporting that a study had shown
Kiwi fruits to be the most nutrient dense, both in terms of vitamins and
'cancer preventing chemicals'. Anyone know what this study was?
Certainly if I die of cancer before the age 80, and it couldhave been
prevented by changing my diet, I won't consider the nutrition 'adequate'.
--
cheers, Ian
http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/iane
http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/iane/coops
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Message-ID:
From: Darryl Rubin
To: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>, cranlist
Subject: RE: re- resveratrol
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:40:42 -0800
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>> Are you aware that the lycopene is metabolized more efficiently
if it comes combined with (disolved in) oil? As I understand it
tomato paste doesn't have any oil. <<
You're correct that tomato paste has no oil, but it should contain
lycopenes. Lycopenes are not destroyed by heating, and tomato paste is
just condensed, pureed tomatoes. If you add some oil to the dish you
use the paste in, you should get your lycopenes. By the way, my
understanding is that oil promotes the absorption of lycopenes, not
their metabolism.
Darryl
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Oct 29 21:19:04 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:17:49 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Publicity
To: cranlist
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:04:10 -0500 (EST), Ben Best wrote:
>(this is my third list),
Are the others anything which the rest of us might be interested in?
> I am much more interested in quality than quantity. My greatest
>preference would be to get a few more people from the CRSOCIETY
>list.
However, I have been frequenting several of the newsgroups which I
mentioned before and I am amazed how many times CR comes up from
intelligent people from whom you would get quality messages. You don't
have all the "quality" people interested in CR on this list or the
CRSociety list by any means.
> I DO place a great emphasis on the practice and value of CRAN. The
>"AN" part of CRAN does not refer to things like phytochemicals or deprenyl
>or DHEA,etc. These nutrients, hormones, etc. provide benefits ABOVE those
>provided by CRAN. (The "AN" refers to nutrients adequate to prevent
>deficiency disease.)
But the meaing of the term "deficiency disease" for a particular nutrient
as used in the medical literature is just plain nonsense, IMO. I believe
for example that within a very few years many of these definitions will
be upgraded to the amount which is necessary to prevent some major
current disease in most people. Eg. the amount of vitamin E which is
deemed "adequate" will be upgraded to 400 IU instead of 40.
In addition, being physiological like a 60 year old instead of a 20 year
is a "deficiency disease", IMO. If DHEA, melatonin, GH, etc. will help
restore one's physiology to that of a 20 year old then these also are part
of "adequate nutrition".
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Wed Oct 29 21:49:18 1997
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From: ddmcneill1@juno.com (Derek D McNeill)
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Ben could you provide some guidance as to the criteria by which we should
decide between posting to this list or posting to the CRSociety
list - assuming the question is about longevity oriented eating?
I gather you started this list because of your conflicts with Brian D.
Is he not allowed on this list? There are a lot of people with knowledge
about CR/CRAN but he seems to have been at it for longer than most,
so I wouldn't want to miss his input.
But I'd also enjoy your input.
Yet you said you didn't want people to crosspost. (maybe you are still
on the crsociety list?)
Any guidance will be appreciated.
Thanks.
Derek.
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:14:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: Ben Best
cc: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
Subject: Re: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Ben Best wrote:
> I should research this, but perhaps you can tell me, lycopene is the
> colorant of tomatoes, is it not? If so, then it would be well to add RED
> tomatoes, and the REDDEST TOMATOES YOU CAN FIND.
>
That's quite right. A lycopene enriched tomato is commercially available
now. It's called Hot House. The bioavailability of lycopene from fresh
tomatoes is about 1/4 that of cooked tomato paste. (Am J Clin Nutr 66:
116-122 1997)
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:21:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: Ben Best
cc: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
Subject: HDL/LDL ratio
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Ben Best wrote:
> This is one of the problems with epidemiological studies. There are
> much better ways to increase the HDL/LDL ratio than by drinking alcohol.
> Exercise and niacin are my preferred ways.
>
You might want to check out a curcumin supplement, which is the yellow
pigment in the spice tumeric. A daily dose of one capsule containing 500
mg curcumin increased HDL by 29%, decreased LDL by 11% and reduced serum
lipid peroxides by 33%. (Indian J Physiol Pharmacol 36(4): 273-275 1992)
I'm impressed with this result.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Oct 30 01:06:43 1997
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:03:52 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Adequate Nutrition
To: cranlist
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:26:09 +0000, Ian Eiloart wrote:
>At 7:04 am +0000 29/10/97, Ben Best wrote:
>> I DO place a great emphasis on the practice and value of CRAN. The
>>"AN" part of CRAN does not refer to things like phytochemicals or deprenyl
>>or DHEA,etc. These nutrients, hormones, etc. provide benefits ABOVE those
>>provided by CRAN. (The "AN" refers to nutrients adequate to prevent
>>deficiency disease.)
>But how do you define a deficiency disease? Are the cancers that are
>prevented by eating fresh fruit and veg 'deficiency diseases'? If not, why
>not?
As I explained in an earlier post. At the present time, technically, they
are not. Fresh fruits and vegetables are not classified as "essential" by
current medical and nutritional science.
The "why not?" is because they are "behind the times, conservative, idiots" :)
>Maybe the conventional view is that diseases like scurvy are deficeincy
>diseases, and these are characterised by being fairly dramatic, fast
>responses to lack of specific nutrients that have been historically easy to
>identify-and the ones that aren't fats and proteins got called vitamins.
That is essentially correct.
>The Scientific American special edition on cancer estimated that one third
>of preventable cancers are due to poor nutrition. Surely this is a major
>factor in figuring out what 'adequate nutrition means'.
It still has to get into the establishment as meaning that this kind of
nutrition is essential.
>BTW, last week all the UK newspapers wre reporting that a study had shown
>Kiwi fruits to be the most nutrient dense, both in terms of vitamins and
>'cancer preventing chemicals'. Anyone know what this study was?
Thanks for the info. I will immediately begin adding a Kiwi a day to my
already large fruit intake.
>Certainly if I die of cancer before the age 80, and it couldhave been
>prevented by changing my diet, I won't consider the nutrition 'adequate'.
I agree. I believe that both CVD and cancer are almost always preventable.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Oct 30 01:06:46 1997
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:03:43 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:22:14 -0500 (EST), Ben Best wrote:
> I should research this, but perhaps you can tell me, lycopene is the
>colorant of tomatoes, is it not? If so, then it would be well to add RED
>tomatoes, and the REDDEST TOMATOES YOU CAN FIND.
Yes, also it is the red color in watermelon, pink grapefruit and those sweet
red peppers that you love so much (me too). :)
I don't know what is the relative content of these different sources.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Oct 30 01:06:51 1997
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:03:50 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: resveratrol
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:31:55 -0500 (EST), Ben Best wrote:
> This is one of the problems with epidemiological studies. There are
>much better ways to increase the HDL/LDL ratio than by drinking alcohol.
>Exercise and niacin are my preferred ways.
>From my research, Niacin is needed at too high a dosage to do much good
for HDL/LDL ratio. They high dosage is hard on and possibly dangerous for
the liver, not to mention the secondary flusing.histamine release which
everyone says is harmless, but who knows this for sure over the long run.
> Whether alcohol would add any
>benefit after exercise & niacin is an unanswered question, but even if it
>did, I would not want to use it (I am a "teetotaler"). People too often
>look at only one effect of a chemical at a time. To evaluate a chemical
>-- including alcohol -- you must look at ALL of the effects of that
>chemical, not just one. Then do a "cost/benefit analysis" on the sum
>effects. I think alcohol has too many negative effects for me to be
>very impressed with the few positive ones. Most important being temporary
>and possibly also permanent reduction of brain function.
However, I *totaly* agree with your ideas on alcohol. I am a "teetotaler"
too for basically the same reasons.
> Frankly, I sometimes wonder if my cholesterol levels are not too low
>for optimum health. My HDL/LDL ratios are excellent. An epidemiological
>benefit from HDL/LDL improvement for non-exersizers who do not take niacin
>is of little relevance to me.
Anything in the range 110 to 150, total with good ratio (Tot/LDL under 2.5)
would be conducive to optimal health IMO.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Oct 30 03:56:43 1997
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:43:35 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: HDL/LDL ratio
To: cranlist
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:21:15 -0800 (PST), Doug Skrecky wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Ben Best wrote:
>> This is one of the problems with epidemiological studies. There are
>> much better ways to increase the HDL/LDL ratio than by drinking alcohol.
>> Exercise and niacin are my preferred ways.
>
>You might want to check out a curcumin supplement, which is the yellow
>pigment in the spice tumeric. A daily dose of one capsule containing 500
>mg curcumin increased HDL by 29%, decreased LDL by 11% and reduced serum
>lipid peroxides by 33%. (Indian J Physiol Pharmacol 36(4): 273-275 1992)
>I'm impressed with this result.
This has also been found to arise from consuming fish oils, 2000 mg vitamin
C per day, and gugulipid (an indian herb) - references can be supplied.
The Life Extension Foundation has a product called Herbal Cardiovascular
Formula which contains cucumin, Gugulipid, Bromelain and Ginger (the last
two having other heart/artery benefits).
I take two a day of these capsules.
In addition, s-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) either directly supplemented,
or produced within the body by supplementing B6, B12, folate and
trimethylglycine (TMG), will lower overall cholersterol and increase
the beneficial HDL/LDL ratio.
-- Paul --
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:43:33 -0500
From: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
To: cranlist
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:14:06 -0800 (PST), Doug Skrecky wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Ben Best wrote:
>> I should research this, but perhaps you can tell me, lycopene is the
>> colorant of tomatoes, is it not? If so, then it would be well to add RED
>> tomatoes, and the REDDEST TOMATOES YOU CAN FIND.
>That's quite right. A lycopene enriched tomato is commercially available
>now. It's called Hot House.
Thank you. This is a useful fact.
> The bioavailability of lycopene from fresh tomatoes is about 1/4 that
>of cooked tomato paste. (Am J Clin Nutr 66: 116-122 1997)
Without more explanation, however, this is not of much value.
Mechanisms are everything! (once proven and verified of course)
Do you mean that if we take one tomato and make it into paste, it
is 4 times as effective lycopene-wise? Or does this greater
"bioavailability" relate to the lower water percentage of the paste
or some other concentration factor (which might ignore the loss of
some other beneficial factor in whole tomatoes - fiber for example)
Frankly, I can hardly believe it is the former. Even with carrots
and their tough cellulose cells, the bioavailability of the
carotenioid is not 4 times better in the juiced or cooked state.
Presenting more details and explanations instead of just a
blazing fast "pronouncement" would be a whole lot more helpful.
-- Paul --
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Oct 30 13:46:33 1997
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:46:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: Paul Wakfer <70023.3041@compuserve.com>
cc: cranlist
Subject: Re: Phytochemicals -- first CRAN Listserver posting
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On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Paul Wakfer wrote:
> > The bioavailability of lycopene from fresh tomatoes is about 1/4 that
> >of cooked tomato paste. (Am J Clin Nutr 66: 116-122 1997)
>
> Without more explanation, however, this is not of much value.
> Mechanisms are everything! (once proven and verified of course)
> Do you mean that if we take one tomato and make it into paste, it
> is 4 times as effective lycopene-wise? Or does this greater
> "bioavailability" relate to the lower water percentage of the paste
> or some other concentration factor (which might ignore the loss of
> some other beneficial factor in whole tomatoes - fiber for example)
>
Perhaps a further applification is in order:
FORM OF TOMATO BIOAVAIlABILITY
tomato juice/1% corn oil zero
same boiled for 1 hour extremely high
fresh tomatoes/corn oil moderate
tomato paste/corn oil high
References: J Nutr. 2161-2166 1992
Am J Clin Nutr 66: 116-122 1997
It is interesting the risk of prostate cancer, as affected by various
forms of tomato is predicted by lycopene bioavailability:
FORM OF TOMATO RELATIVE RISK HIGH VERSUS LOW CONSUMPTION
tomato juice 15% increase
tomatoes 26% decrease
tomato sauce(paste + oil) 34% decrease
Reference: J Natl Cancer Inst 87: 1767-1776 1995
I am not sure why different forms of tomato has different
bioavailabilities. Perhaps someone with more education than I (high school
biology) might care to comment. My guess is that only lycopene that is
dissolved in oil is absorbed. This may explain why boiling tomato
juice/oil is so beneficial. It does not explain why whole tomatoes have a
much higher bioavailability than fresh tomato juice to my satisfaction.
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Thu Oct 30 15:07:45 1997
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From: "Phil Harris"
To:
Subject: lycopene again
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:06:05 -0000
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Doug Skrecky wrote 30 October
> I am not sure why different forms of tomato has different
> bioavailabilities. Perhaps someone with more education than I (high
school
> biology) might care to comment. My guess is that only lycopene that is
> dissolved in oil is absorbed. This may explain why boiling tomato
> juice/oil is so beneficial. It does not explain why whole tomatoes have a
> much higher bioavailability than fresh tomato juice to my satisfaction.
>
Doug
Some experiments out of a set are almost always guaranteed to give
anomolous results. Generally need lots of them with some careful
comparisons before we get beyond the plausible. However, I thought lycopene
was directly picked up by some assay of human tissue or blood. If that is
the case, then carefully done experiments should be repeatable. I would
like to check with the Heinz funded people (B Chiko's snippet I reposted)
how they were able to get a figure of 540ml of tomato juice per day as a
standard (to be compared with measured neat lycopene doses) for providing
enough absorption to cross a threshold and become physiologically active.
Tomato juice has to be cooked in some way or it would go rotten. I am not
sure what fresh tomato juice is, unless you (or the experimenters) blend it
on the spot. For experimental comparison there would need to be a way of
standardising on lycopene content. I took as a rough measure the solids
content of products as a marker (left out the water). Of course this does
not allow for different concentrations between tomato sources, which I
guess are not so great.
Not sure what is going on, but feel I need more than the odd paper. General
picture is plausible OK. No objection just now to cooking with a tspfl of
olive oil.
best wishes
phil harris
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Oct 31 03:45:46 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:43:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best
Subject: Publicity and "Adequate" nutrition
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On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Paul Wakfer wrote:
> >(this is my third list),
>
> Are the others anything which the rest of us might be interested in?
I doubt it. One was for an APL computer-language group and the
other was for a (primarily local) self-development seminar group
led by Cameron Freeman (which you know about). I have just turned the
latter over to Cameron for administration and am pleased with the
prospect that I now have the option of UNSUBSCRIBEing myself.
> > I am much more interested in quality than quantity. My greatest
> >preference would be to get a few more people from the CRSOCIETY
> >list.
>
> However, I have been frequenting several of the newsgroups which I
> mentioned before and I am amazed how many times CR comes up from
> intelligent people from whom you would get quality messages. You don't
> have all the "quality" people interested in CR on this list or the
> CRSociety list by any means.
If you feel you can attract more "quality" people to my list without
attracting too many others, why not send private messages to those
people? I admit that I don't want to over-burden myself with too much
administrative work -- even with "quality" people. The amount of time
I am now spending trying to clean-out my e-mail is already far to much.
And I am already getting "bounced" messages from CRAN subscribers
who only joined the list a few days ago. This stuff is a real time-waster.
I definitely do not want to be managing a list with over 100 people, no
matter how "quality" those people are.
> > I DO place a great emphasis on the practice and value of CRAN. The
> >"AN" part of CRAN does not refer to things like phytochemicals or deprenyl
> >or DHEA,etc. These nutrients, hormones, etc. provide benefits ABOVE those
> >provided by CRAN. (The "AN" refers to nutrients adequate to prevent
> >deficiency disease.)
>
> But the meaing of the term "deficiency disease" for a particular nutrient
> as used in the medical literature is just plain nonsense, IMO. I believe
> for example that within a very few years many of these definitions will
> be upgraded to the amount which is necessary to prevent some major
> current disease in most people. Eg. the amount of vitamin E which is
> deemed "adequate" will be upgraded to 400 IU instead of 40.
>
> In addition, being physiological like a 60 year old instead of a 20 year
> is a "deficiency disease", IMO. If DHEA, melatonin, GH, etc. will help
> restore one's physiology to that of a 20 year old then these also are part
> of "adequate nutrition".
On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Ian Eiloart wrote:
> At 7:04 am +0000 29/10/97, Ben Best wrote:
> >
> > I DO place a great emphasis on the practice and value of CRAN. The
> >"AN" part of CRAN does not refer to things like phytochemicals or deprenyl
> >or DHEA,etc. These nutrients, hormones, etc. provide benefits ABOVE those
> >provided by CRAN. (The "AN" refers to nutrients adequate to prevent
> >deficiency disease.)
> >
>
> But how do you define a deficiency disease? Are the cancers that are
> prevented by eating fresh fruit and veg 'deficiency diseases'? If not, why
> not?
>
> Maybe the conventional view is that diseases like scurvy are deficeincy
> diseases, and these are characterised by being fairly dramatic, fast
> responses to lack of specific nutrients that have been historically easy to
> identify-and the ones that aren't fats and proteins got called vitamins.
>
> The Scientific American special edition on cancer estimated that one third
> of preventable cancers are due to poor nutrition. Surely this is a major
> factor in figuring out what 'adequate nutrition means'.
>
> BTW, last week all the UK newspapers wre reporting that a study had shown
> Kiwi fruits to be the most nutrient dense, both in terms of vitamins and
> 'cancer preventing chemicals'. Anyone know what this study was?
>
> Certainly if I die of cancer before the age 80, and it couldhave been
> prevented by changing my diet, I won't consider the nutrition 'adequate'.
It is frustrating to me that I have not made myself clear about my
use of the word "Adequate", but I guess that just shows that communication
isn't always as easy as I like to think it is.
Whether anything is "adequate" depends on what your objectives are.
If your objective is to obtain "optimal" nutrition, then anything less
than "optimal" is "inadequate" and the words become indistinguishable. If
your objective is a diet that guarantees physical immortality, then
anything less becomes "inadeqate" -- irrespective of whether your
objective is possible or not.
I am simply looking for a term that describes the experiments
performed by Dr. Walford & associates. In those experiments, "adequate
nutrition" prevented deficiency disease and allowed the mice to achieve
lifespans up to 60% greater than "normal". Prior to 1970 a large
proportion of researchers failed to achieve results with
calorie-restriction due to inadequate amounts of nutrients.
Therefore, the definition of "adequate" used in CRAN is an amount
sufficient to allow the results seen in such experiments to manifest.
The nutrient levels to achieve this effect (and, indeed, the effect
itself) has not been scientifically demonstrated for humans.
I hope this makes my use of the word "adequate" more clear.
CRAN nutrition is NOT adequate for my objectives, because I
supplement my AN nutrients with anti-oxidants, ginko, DHEA, etc.
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Oct 31 16:21:25 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:21:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Skrecky
To: cran@listservice.net
Subject: 18'th update on fly longevity experiments
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This is the eighteenth update of my fly experiments. The onion 4X
bottle is turning out unexpectedly to be a big winner, with a day 45
survival of 50%. By comparison by day 26, survivals in 5 out of 6 control
bottles were lower than this. Although high dose onion powder looks very
promising, I will need to replicate these good results before believing
them.
Cinnamon with a day 45 survival of 35% also looks promising. I will be
testing chitosan in the next run in combination with various fat
containing supplements, including onion and cinnamon. We'll see then if
chitosan's fat absorbing ability improves survivals yet further.
Adding yeast to the control bottles looks to be reducing survival.
Under sterile laboratory conditions adding yeast can increase survival
slightly. Since my own somewhat unsanitary experiments find yeast to be
deleterious, I take this to be an indication that pathogens are a
longevity limiting factor with my experiments. Nontoxic doses of onion,
sage and cinnamon may be offering life span extension primarily by
inhibiting pathogen growth. This renders my results questionable to say
the least and before any supplement can be conclusively stated to be
beneficial to fly longevity, experiments conducted under truly sterile
conditions would be needed. I will attempt to improve my own quality
control procedures in the next run.
Those with sharp eyes may notice that one of the paprika doped flies
sprang back to life on day 41, after being declared a goner on day 36.
Sixth Run SURVIVAL ON DAY
BB# Supplement #10 #14 #18 #26 #36 #41 #45
1 cntl 1 93% 87% 80% 47% 20% 20% 7%
1 cntl 1 +yeast 90 85 70 45 20 5 5
1 B complex 94 82 71 47 12 12 6
1 B complex 4X 83 78 67 44 6 0 -
1 chitosan 86 79 64 36 7 0 -
1 chitosan 4X 83 83 83 75 42 33 25
1 chondroitin sulfate 89 83 83 78 56 33 11
1 chondroitin sulfate 4X 88 82 65 65 24 12 6
1 chromium picolinate 75 65 60 50 25 10 5
1 chromium picolinate 4X 92 88 83 79 58 33 21
1 cinnamon 90 85 85 75 55 50 35
1 cinnamon 4X 93 87 80 40 33 20 13
1 DMAE bitartrate 85 62 62 46 31 15 15
1 DMAE bitartrate 4X 78 78 78 56 44 22 6
2 cntl 2 89 82 67 37 15 7 4
2 cntl 2 +yeast 82 82 64 18 5 5 5
2 french mushroom 80 72 56 40 8 0 -
2 french mushroom 4X 74 43 43 26 4 4 4
2 kava kava 79 67 54 38 25 0 -
2 kava kava 4X 83 75 64 56 22 11 6
2 onion 77 73 68 32 18 9 9
2 onion 4X 81 75 75 63 56 56 50
2 paprika, spanish 84 76 60 48 20 24 12
2 paprika, spanish 4X 94 82 76 59 24 12 12
2 l-proline 73 60 53 33 20 20 13
2 l-proline 4X 94 81 75 59 34 19 9
2 sage 95 68 63 32 16 16 5
2 sage 4X 95 90 90 85 60 35 30
2 sodium citrate 62 46 46 38 15 8 8
2 sodium citrate 4X 89 83 61 33 28 11 11
3 cntl 3 77 68 64 59 18 14 5
3 cntl 3 +yeast 92 85 62 15 0 - -
3 St John's Wort 85 75 70 40 15 10 0
3 St John's Wort 4X 72 50 39 0 - - -
3 sumac 43 43 43 36 14 7 7
3 sumac 4X 79 71 57 36 29 21 21
3 wild yam 50 42 25 25 8 8 0
3 wild yam 4X 82 55 50 32 14 5 5
>From owner-cran@ListService.net Fri Oct 31 21:28:47 1997
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Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:26:47 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:26:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Ben Best
X-Sender: benbest@shell1.interlog.com
To: Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition Listserver
cc: Ben Best ,
Derek D McNeill
Subject: Which list?
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The following message was posted to the CRAN list, but was bounced to
me because it had words in the first 10 lines that the Majordomo software
interpreted to be Majordomo commands. I have disabled this software.
Unfortunately, if people now submit subscription requests to the
CRAN@ListService.net instead of to Majordomo@ListService.net these
requests will be distributed to the whole list. It seems that you
can't have it both ways. I am counting on the last mistake being more
unlikely than the first.
I will answer Derek's posting shortly.
-- Ben
--------------------------------------------
Ben Best (benbest@benbest.com)
http://www.benbest.com/
**************************************************************************
**************************************************************************
Ben could you provide some guidance as to the criteria by which we should
decide between posting to this list or posting to the CRSociety
list - assuming the question is about longevity oriented eating?
I gather you started this list because of your conflicts with Brian D.
Is he not allowed on this list? There are a lot of people with knowledge
about CR/CRAN but he seems to have been at it for longer than most,
so I wouldn't want to miss his input.
But I'd also enjoy your input.
Yet you said you didn't want people to crosspost. (maybe you are still
on the crsociety list?)
Any guidance will be appreciated.
Thanks.
Derek.
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